From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:27:47 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87ippyzzgs.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <4E48D309.6050503@acdlabs.ru> <83hb5jujjs.fsf@gnu.org> <874o1j10zv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83fwl3ugak.fsf@gnu.org> <87r54nymtq.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83d3g7udzh.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1313407693 1887 80.91.229.12 (15 Aug 2011 11:28:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:28:13 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 15 13:28:10 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QsvKz-0002gI-5f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:28:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46454 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QsvKy-0000bV-Bf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 07:28:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:43370) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QsvKv-0000bC-Ll for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 07:28:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QsvKu-0001By-Nl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 07:28:05 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:38902) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QsvKu-0001Bu-Dx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 07:28:04 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QsvKr-0002aF-5Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:28:01 +0200 Original-Received: from p508ed573.dip.t-dialin.net ([80.142.213.115]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:28:01 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by p508ed573.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:28:01 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 36 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p508ed573.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:McAs4FxLBsAzycOtTQBYxekRDzk= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:143235 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > You are dead wrong: I have no activism stance in this matter. I > actually don't care. My job was to give Emacs infrastructure upon > which bidi-aware features could be built. That job is almost done, > modulo bugs that will show during the pretest. And that is an important job that makes Emacs usable for a new audience. It won't make it pretty for the new audience, but Emacs is not really pretty except for users comfortable with an English interface. > The rest is the responsibility of those unnamed "external maintainers > of modes"--they are free not to care about catering to the hundreds of > millions of readers of R2L scripts enough to adapt: it's their > funeral. Nope, it is Emacs' funeral if one can't expect it to produce consistent results without lots of changes all across third party code bases. My position is that we should be quite conservative with changing its behavior for pure L2R material, or requiring such changes from third-party code authors. > Everything I wrote in this thread is just advice, no less, no more. > Advice from someone who knows something about how reordering works, > and what can or cannot be easily solved or coded. You can take it or > you can continue attacking it, be my guest any way. But if you want > to convince me, you will have to come up with something more tangible > than just FUD. There is no way that I can make you acknowledge something you choose to ignore. But since you are not the only Emacs developer, raising the issues may still make them register with others. -- David Kastrup