From: "Kévin Le Gouguec" <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,
Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:20:50 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87imhlwg19.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <f0a651f9-1896-46a8-9d19-11755c249c75@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:41:14 -0700 (PDT)")
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>> > I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of
>> > the keybindings for the outline-(show|hide)-… functions,
>>
>> For this reason I implemented `reveal-mode` ;-)
>
> 1. FWIW, both Org Mode and Outline Mode offer
> all anyone needs to know about showing/hiding,
> navigating, etc. - in the menu-bar menus.
>
> I can't understand people lamenting an ability
> to remember key bindings. Especially veteran
> users - they should know how to ask Emacs.
>
> If you're in a mode you don't understand well,
> use `C-h m' or `C-h b'. If such help isn't
> good enough then we should improve it.
>
> And any veteran Emacs user should expect that
> an important or longstanding major mode probably
> also has one or more menu-bar menus, which can
> help with key bindings.
Yup, those (menus, C-h m, C-h b; in this specific case C-c C-h also
works nicely) are what I was referring to as "cheatsheets":
>> > I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of the
>> > keybindings for the outline-(show|hide)-… functions, which means
>> > I will never be able to use the "selective display" feature
>> > advertised in outline-mode's docstring without a cheatsheet.
The point being that yes, hopefully Emacs users can find their way to
a menu or a help buffer; but as org-mode shows we can aim for
something slightly more ergonomic.
If I have to whip these cheatsheets out every time I want to hide a
heading (which I used to do before I finally bound
outline-toggle-children to TAB), I might as well do away with
keybindings and just M-x outline-hide- TAB *squint* (or install
which-key and C-c *squint*).
> 2. It sounds like trivially adding TAB as a key
> for cycling among items in Outline mode would,
> regardless of what mode is used for NEWS, be a
> good idea. And such a lame argument shouldn't
> be put forward as a reason to switch to Org mode
> for NEWS. (I'm not saying anything here about
> which mode should be used for NEWS.)
Wholehearted agreement here.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-04-27 7:20 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 77+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-04-26 15:43 Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Stefan Kangas
2020-04-26 16:13 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-04-26 18:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-26 19:52 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-04-26 20:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-26 22:53 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-04-26 16:16 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-04-26 17:22 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-04-26 19:29 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-04-26 21:54 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-04-26 22:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-26 22:41 ` Drew Adams
2020-04-27 7:20 ` Kévin Le Gouguec [this message]
2020-04-27 15:23 ` Drew Adams
2020-04-27 15:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-04-27 7:39 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-04-27 14:27 ` Reveal-mode (was: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode) Stefan Monnier
2020-04-27 10:23 ` Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Alan Mackenzie
2020-04-27 11:45 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-04-27 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
2020-04-27 21:24 ` Drew Adams
2020-04-27 23:05 ` John Yates
2020-04-28 2:51 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-24 6:23 ` Bastien
2020-04-28 15:12 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-28 16:41 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-04-28 17:56 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-28 19:22 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-04-28 23:35 ` Juri Linkov
2020-04-29 10:53 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-29 11:37 ` Reconciling org-mode idiosyncrasies with Emacs core (was: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode) Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-04-29 12:30 ` Reconciling org-mode idiosyncrasies with Emacs core Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-04 10:45 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-04 14:50 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-04 16:14 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-06 14:54 ` [PATCH] Make RET and C-j obey `electric-indent-mode' in org-mode (was: Reconciling org-mode idiosyncrasies with Emacs core) Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-07 10:48 ` [PATCH] Make RET and C-j obey `electric-indent-mode' in org-mode Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-07 12:03 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-07 12:21 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-07 16:45 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-07 16:50 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-07 19:38 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-24 6:25 ` Bastien
2020-05-07 13:53 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-07 15:33 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-24 6:23 ` Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Bastien
2020-05-24 6:18 ` Bastien
2020-04-27 12:14 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-24 6:13 ` Bastien
2020-04-26 18:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-24 6:15 ` Bastien
2020-04-27 2:23 ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-27 6:37 ` Michael Albinus
2020-04-27 7:12 ` tomas
2020-04-28 2:49 ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-28 9:40 ` Michael Albinus
2020-04-29 3:30 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-24 6:16 ` Bastien
2020-04-27 9:59 ` Po Lu
2020-04-27 14:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-27 14:49 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-04-29 3:27 ` Howard Melman
2020-04-29 3:52 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-04-29 13:54 ` Howard Melman
2020-04-29 14:08 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-04-29 14:17 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-29 14:52 ` Howard Melman
2020-04-29 14:03 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-04-30 10:25 ` H. Dieter Wilhelm
2020-05-07 21:01 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-08 17:50 ` Yuri Khan
2020-05-08 17:55 ` Stefan Kangas
2020-05-24 6:35 ` Bastien
2020-04-29 17:52 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-04-29 19:19 ` Howard Melman
2020-04-30 2:24 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-24 6:04 ` Bastien
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