From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: feature/package+vc 04c4c578c7 3/4: Allow for packages to be installed directly from VCS Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 16:01:31 +0000 Message-ID: <87ilkelc10.fsf@posteo.net> References: <164484721900.31751.1453162457552427931@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <20220214140020.04438C00891@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <87bkqmqpvb.fsf@posteo.net> <87edv96q4j.fsf@posteo.net> <83tu455a5s.fsf@gnu.org> <87a65v2ytp.fsf@posteo.net> <834jw33rmx.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmer0xtz.fsf@posteo.net> <83wn8z2aze.fsf@gnu.org> <878rle1i0k.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8292"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 20 18:42:17 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1olYcb-00020D-Cx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:42:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38556 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1olYcZ-0001mW-4H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 12:42:15 -0400 Original-Received: from [::1] (helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1olYGF-0001KU-BL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 12:19:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44812) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1olXzQ-0005IU-0p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 12:02:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:35471) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1olXzH-0000Tv-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 12:01:47 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E9AC240106 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:01:36 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1666281696; bh=CleD2rcfqci1khM7aTw7ousSBUrcjqG03/bnHdU7jNY=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=jFcIM+JPn3G4r7AVPRaldmd8m/4Ry0Lb5wHFYtPY+Em86Q5n27O2jLfcCWc2DsOY/ TlwEqBP2ADG59jTB4m7f3OM2yfQTOlhVWYb5V7nqaeXUccr8OEkVcqW6GwrXPP67s0 IiaoOziRSI74SwVdVxieTx+7cNALRZh4PZwAGMH+Z+7s/SFZi+wHd3KPtsvHphjx+D q16e2+5UcyltLiH3rKqn8SrHRWP6xPQRRURGEUG/gQdP+M4y7DG+Q3wex/os2vzHR9 GggYpMT/gONwYyZfnXMIstqRtefXZNDuc92DBgTiN+9VdQ+HOFuatDcAuMgCBjn5MG gdmiZFel4/W7g== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4MtXQl0Z1Xz9rxG; Thu, 20 Oct 2022 18:01:32 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 19 Oct 2022 13:02:14 -0400") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=nopreference; keydata= mDMEYHHqUhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAp3GdmYJ6tm5McweY6dEvIYIiry+Oz9rU4MH6NHWK0Ee0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiQBBMWCAA4FiEEDM2H44ZoPt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJ CAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQtVrAHPRh1FyTkgEAjlbGPxFchvMbxzAES3r8QLuZgCxeAXunM9gh io0ePtUBALVhh9G6wIoZhl0gUCbQpoN/UJHI08Gm1qDob5zDxnIHuDgEYHHqUhIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQNcRB+MUimTMqoxxMMUERpOR+Q4b1KgncDZkhrO2ql1tAwEIB4h4BBgWCAAgFiEEDM2H44Zo Pt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwwACgkQtVrAHPRh1Fw1JwD/Qo7kvtib8jy7puyWrSv0MeTS g8qIxgoRWJE/KKdkCLEA/jb9b9/g8nnX+UcwHf/4VfKsjExlnND3FrBviXUW6NcB Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:298156 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > If the main purpose of this feature is for people to test, debug and > develop the development version, I think it is wiser not to speak > of "installing" from VCS. Not necessarily, another advantage might include the ability to maintain personal changes that don't get overridden by updates. There are certainly other reasons to do so that I cannot think of right now. In general I would like to see something like "package-vc" being regarded as a means to make software freedom more practical/perceptible. Emacs per se already does a great job in this regard, by enabling the user to study the source of any command or functionality with minimal overhead (usually just a M-x find-function away), but I believe that features like this can improve this spirit further. > Presenting the feature as a way to "install" would encourage people > who are not really thinking of testing, debugging or developping the > package, and motivated only by a vague wish for "the latest thing." I agree that people might think of this idea, but then again what is the issue if they do? The installation is parallel (but preferred when loading) to any other installation, be it local or system-wide, and if they decide to revert they just have to uninstall the "source" package. > I suggest that we are better off if we avoid encouraging them. > > One way to avoid that is to have this feature simply check out the > package's development sources. If you know how to work with Emacs > Lisp, you will not find it hard to byte compile that and use it. We > can even document the natural ways to proceed and do those things, and > people who are really prepared to test it will do them. But newbies > probably won't go that far. I proposed a library along those lines last year that would automate this (it was called "site-lisp.el" in case you want to look the discussion up). It automatically byte-compiles, prepares autoloads and adds the directory to the load path for all files/directories in ~/.config/emacs/site-lisp. I still use it for a number of my personal projects, but it doesn't do the same thing as package-vc, so I wouldn't consider them to be mutually exclusive. What I do believe is that by default, what you have to do to prepare and load some foreign code is unnecessarily cumbersome/repetitive.