From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: master 72b1379f079: Increase `emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column` to 72 Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2024 11:00:04 +0800 Message-ID: <87il36mevf.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <170687730547.552.9673193819426474611@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <20240202123506.0CEC7C0EFF5@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <87mssjm0ac.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13441"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 03 04:01:28 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rW6HY-0003L0-28 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 03 Feb 2024 04:01:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rW6GX-0006V4-EG; Fri, 02 Feb 2024 22:00:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rW6GV-0006TH-Fa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2024 22:00:24 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic315-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.148]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rW6GT-0005ZG-BQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2024 22:00:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1706929218; bh=AJ/pS0SKXKCHE5hdZkuqzq1KUv6T24EAIl4AgFD/V0k=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=kd9zucCQsRO4afTc2RkDnNByWvfYQB45WDk0PPOgQ7CQkqz4KPLscgHCfMXChcklG/saDxemsGKZ382caoiiYpnx/bBdsQ9F8kT9zeSRuiyiNOdCUowY11pHBcYdqUJ1bBG5bYRRXfKnWIrbYbxIy5rdqngQqSdzpjfuTt3NornLJ4g6tf1qE5jhyTs48M9c857nPUq9Ozbc8L4135j/MTwEZHXR1Mk3hrm7i5G1orAHmgxU1+N++i+HLSFC8t/xEAR9kER8foFGEagvL1TV4jC1uHGZfgvMXetCYgEN+I+P7OQHotfLZTS71SMDB1WzlKSRsIS/9P2qo8nrXouiMg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1706929218; bh=c32XCFpiJGVb37GpSBLFJaiJcjLb++y2g3AuKdROKpX=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=ovU33+SaX9CCYCpzWFQNCpEs55Z1njxn4lcCNzw1hRUNZhxNElr1oN4WVGheGVjYDKCqLqIkqz9RyzWKyoPOlVHhG7x6A4m2GfOE697coOSj0TTdh3jeOx8QawbvHVkD8OKlQ/CliroCNWrCXzkpbhTtS26xaKs/wZzHm0Js5jOCk0OoDX9qENB3ARq8dOqEx+ko1cwVfkBNt5fZ0UUVgv4VNkbk+9AUEvBlXHz3gOWMyEU6T5bJZCUicuiEXNjjRhqOf4wCoLeyXnUSK0SHuLQc599YAtp8XG0WBps+0Zncfpfu+6k3MFtjgSHxe3s239pXyq1ZppIEi9irsL5IvA== X-YMail-OSG: fM09A9sVM1kcbN_GUVG5DpGWHjduOy2FDz930xQa9N6wesKDqeYV6qnPIFxoWu7 lMHyv3sbbu2nMFxbIxn10mT3DokapE1yZ6mPjx8IVQHJlvcJvGmvczJ_2zZyM9XZrMQKjKvQiG.3 75wa1SzZHicz8WuhJTPdWmZhmGQoaP4.r70SdD2kIcdTRUmW4BZye7rogRV.NICy8yNO3pPYQaS2 1f7CnLKV14gWV9OfeAR.eyhUHbYwLq8Zr2..ud7tWRV4nihI.Ci9hSsJ08ur4spOCB22NKBL4S3s 8fSO4esaWDFBT7tdZRJMEBm1letw0mkOtEIFcUIElsON8djEs45dh7S_MvOGW9OxuAryCjnuYpP3 0bYxiH65q_VSFS27mechfbNfSjvYT1VXYZZLoq5oXK1fGAWjfRktPcU3mGMaJzdwgGV_QclFWU4x 5HviOW32vNLQ.gxzUSEYEebqfPEKZbt0TciMg5q_SXqsyoxWLYA6xFgmNh7N3pT1CQbePlJK6bSK mJ73VVHU3nBYxXvpAXalzcooB.DmDUrx339g1v_kEq7K8yG29UxW1d4lAUcGT90daYTuPI52ew3L 0XVghyBAjbRFbjWL0HiDdJnhT1j1BuLG2DLyEd_sMr1Hs9_lmh5HtvbycbkYP_RkZJALSfdLgwdB plyiPDfhA0V38zGkb9HDnvsEiWWOoDWZse7vDVT7h2gg4.3grnF8enkj6NVz83kJfS_AovKtFmuf Qo.I_nfVHpxZs.tpuvYI4GNLwiLiiFKVA7aBWvncV4fdlf8VSwmCu24vCIQa6rZiu.6rm3Mkzhxy VQ3dFuWw9Gb9ixM0qAcuQWbthq76uhgLGNm.NeEvzb X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: bdc8c305-cafc-4a34-b8a0-bbbd9b0474b3 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 3 Feb 2024 03:00:18 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-6dc75bc8fb-67hzc (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 69fe52a832e5ac7ac88de95f84adf12b; Sat, 03 Feb 2024 03:00:13 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 2 Feb 2024 06:23:22 -0800") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22046 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.190.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic315-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315783 Archived-At: Stefan Kangas writes: > Indeed. I proposed a solution: patches welcome. > > If we need to fix it in some other way for mobile displays in the > meanwhile, please work on that. Info and many other things in Emacs > wrap to 72 columns, so we are already dealing with that problem. > > It will take a very long time indeed before any significant proportion > of our docstrings have been reflowed to this new default, so we still > have plenty of time. My point was that the circumstances of this change demonstrate that December's debacle was completely lost on the parties involved. It should have taught us (again) that users do not take kindly to being surprised by arbitrary choices a handful of individuals decide to implement that they were not consulted about, yet within two months of the event a much more wide-reaching change is installed in an identical manner, of which criticism is met by an ultimatum to either complete a task that stands little chance of success (designing and securing the universal adoption of a new doc string format), or accept the change as a fact of life. I trust many people will agree with me that increasing this variable from 64 to 72 is an exclusively aesthetic change, driven by personal opinions formed towards the appearance of doc strings, and perhaps in the belief that a lack of change is likely to be perceived as stagnation. In truth, there has been _nothing_ to suggest that the width of doc strings has inconvenienced our users in any manner, and likewise none to suggest widening it will bring about an indispensable improvement. As December's affair should have demonstrated, such arbitrary actions, when normalized, give rise to a neurotic user-base constantly at each other's throats, apprehensive of the next update to Emacs which might break their configurations or interfere with their habits in new and unseen ways, and belligerent in their defense of their existing practices and preferences. I mean this literally--Eshel Yaron's blog post being one example, numerous others exist also, such as the sea of acrimony formed on Reddit in response to a package developer's request not to use Emacs 30, which was not so much related to Emacs as it was a collection of accusations of rudeness, immaturity, and bitter general faultfinding, or the hostility that radiates from every discussion on the subject of better or worse defaults, compilation failures induced by updating to new versions of Emacs, and the like. Worse yet, I can sense myself warming to them by the hour. As for Info and "many other things", they are not doc strings, and should not be factors in decisions regarding them.