From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:30:18 +0200 Message-ID: <87ikweepit.fsf@web.de> References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <871q33rj7v.fsf@dataswamp.org> <86ed73qhly.fsf@gnu.org> <87frrjoryg.fsf_-_@dataswamp.org> <86wmkuq60j.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5hqq4v3.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="1419"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emanuel Berg , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Christopher Dimech Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 05 21:31:16 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3QJ-0000DO-6b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:31:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3PY-0008Hb-5B; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:30:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3PW-0008FZ-38 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:30:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sb3PT-0002ZY-8p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 15:30:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1722886220; x=1723491020; i=arne_bab@web.de; bh=9zcIR2v54R6DurupmFSPpPCv5QoeYKignJCKdKpdURY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=vQPUsIwyp/WeTzNWuKoikT7MhaLdfT7XeWiikRUDPP/l2ldsyvifqo7EgcFPRRqu E/jED0hNrD9m+oROr/rKcd6hUcW26kcxJxdAw7BfSwg67W0hpJLRA5E4LnDGjaB86 VV8+pvkUhrA9ITM23UdohiZ6ep5VGmIi4YCKjCnDHPcpm84TVcC579vJmTC6JkDQl G1U3402Lt5kVviqgB9nsvHQW82Qy+PV78GlXoPZHmDOAWEQu/6/MkTn23NkkAc2sA pVcjVeSIDqK1sliPz6+dTyrDf3envByovdy08MtvDsePPfRtHVsGCRlAeJQFn8jhz XCdSAVAzSQxiqGwwRQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Original-Received: from fluss ([80.136.23.189]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M8TBM-1sWfhD45fk-000P6y; Mon, 05 Aug 2024 21:30:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Christopher Dimech's message of "Mon, 5 Aug 2024 20:58:19 +0200") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:w+dPztxjrubf/FLS9p99vArHtJxNTktdqFAiw5xQbcQ8pfgGQeD zLZqfcEvcMBytT2wG9oVCv+YVZzmwr3F2GIWHJXWdT9EhRk1gvAEXjSJS3fWn2vIWG/WnvJ CfxVofcLSp+Y0QqGs+YujD/qit9LndXSVsR/WZSZZEIuLAozbLq7bC9k2/ymg0pDF3kPPfg VSAk+aSTWmxftMPCGdVqg== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:5ZkiHSdxBW8=;qJqjWN3CcDGCGrwMYJsdBKvpfDW nYk8f/mnP/C+v6e7/QT6C53y2ij79AhBqqJh68pq6738xjl6GG++i5VpiRFGxOXDDR7ugac6U LbvXJPsk/P4/gXIOM7gij07vLIggX5w9LZqml7NtSY7SKll6YnXB/jSxPYlb63/Msk6C8ulbB TRqF8v5hDXb/+8HTI0On1DOXOM8GNiU5ZdyYfBxAllpZAFg8DD5CyH2s5jmc2sGmYhyKSzlBC 96/7GvmJLVvBij36wNqRqVkT+SLN+4eEnweuOtOpdFf7K5KK7d1G7Qi8h91HiHIad2uhHXF6a ERKYOIj4BXYngwFn+iuRk8xUZejVnxcMz/GDEvGlxG9PEgOjGoK6zdIz4Ru89GVezSWWXSgJ8 knYM26j7WD9zfQTYs3uSy3/5H0Y2Z/91dQgx/jeDX+TjOMvi8Bd00GqJapsZVQwakcaMvuncl 2vfu1d1FY8q5Y8SIUrbQpzM32wFSexE/H4N8BF/ii32byRjtOVtyuyZk+Yi8Jnb0t12RabxcA OrsWd8mGVw+gjXJGJ/n8x1yXXhFq1ljsdp+CzMWectqoNyi4KfzAcsHcLSBF3ZkMltEk7C4TP 4LZqNcw8dUOirk8T/pJrvTrtd3sf7qwdv06Hw9gJARs7JsiPM6/7xsIsze3uTyFavLMMAwlpp LF2mNmTm+S0uYyPziZBoPk6S84WI6m2SSb4Svyog0sT8jfSkFJBkaq5ZOqHaU2BVXBLqZzQDS AH5qD9+K9JscNgRyqqA3Hp1T6rf2BBupjDvvO1abDI44zOyvcLQzXbhApWh/qMYZb41sD8W/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.4; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322409 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christopher Dimech writes: > It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that > have had a prior exposure to Python, as potential programmers they are > mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. Having learned Scheme after learning Python, I strongly disagree =E2=80=94 = both to your point and to your ugly portrayal of people. You point: Python helps to understand Scheme because it provides fundamentals to structure reasoning. To separate concerns. To test with low overhead. To access data in common formats. To do the task you care about instead of adhering to ceremony. Going from Python to Scheme isn=E2= =80=99t hard. suggest reading "The Adventures of a Pythonista in Schemeland": http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~micheles/scheme/ Your portrayal: this dehumanizing language has no place in a discussion. Badmouthing people does a disservice to any point you want to make. > In the good old days physicists repeated each other's experiments, just > to be sure. Today they stick to Python, so that they can share each > other's programs, bugs included. Replace "Python" with whatever programming language they use. If you think, Physicists do not share C++ code, or matlab code, or (yes) Fortran-code, where did you get this notion? Did you work with them? (I did) Did you read code of large weather models? Meteorologists who prove the deviations of a model down to phase shifts before they write the first line of code (do you do that before you write a program?) are still happy to share code. They know what they get and what they share. Theoretical meteorology (at least in a faculty that works with that) is an eye-opener for how primitive software development of typical business software often is (this is not derogatory: business software has other main challenges, like staying maintainable in the face of constantly changing requirements). Physicists who write a Python tool and then add a Cython part compiled to C to get native performance and who test this in detail against different existing tools using multitudes of parameters and datasets will still happily share code. Physicists who write a Python model that binds complex atmospheric transport Fortran code know what they do: they keep the non-performance-critical parts in Python, because that enables them to spend more time on the actually critical parts. Don=E2=80=99t go badmouthing other people. The disdain spread among software developers against Fortran caused me to lose a lot of time during my PhD until I finally understood how misguided it is. Please don=E2=80=99t repeat that mistake with Python. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmaxKEsQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD64KND/wI5DQiyUwSuc7u4grRJppnlZQGTzB2s7Uy WLwHU+6LIz1mAzNBv3A5z0+gB531NOq14NqqNO5YgPQUfgtMX5Iu9/no4G/tAdmG X4FetAzWsmvKZiLzFSjZdc7YjS5KcHdUQv3OzOBUsvswj4/TMmJ1/jvL07nwFRbs aK8L5Z4yIfQb1CjYPNTYXfflOOYsYXx7x63/79KDk+g7jcCWWhPX9+A8s78QTDcZ zUW2DNgU9VT+Mq58tWF7FrPxFTwPoFaYhL13kCPooZ1u0zrFQTmXP7GuzQNlj4vx g57VE87uePoUMcksGfninyuVBlAWlqFQv9k6Amsq6yUHmJPDevNiJ1T4GHH/fOGg GoQOl7MGqHPv0TlDUwy0Arb4/frTzdqGvHzPkC8iLedOxAZ/LYoogFMdZ/fyqK92 7HSAh0LFjMk/zekvbPQV9zqVLCcMiZUzKuMp/lxs2qoFpXhZDPopdXv4Uw6ymyFE ewurVHlZ64eJattmTMfhgqe7c9YUqWd2fSdDV/ad0yudH9qFoxDB9i7bOTcR7HHB I6HJ4dVayjSjq4sypeWOOGgBo0Ix5EUhG+t43PQ8Q8zO3uHKwK1aGypH7QcKKBBQ 9emwgMIKp/FaBQGMyefRXHPUP7B7EdEzMqVheEaTSlMBYOpOsWbwhEwyfE9mq21q qlgGZOqoW4jEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmaxKEsQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSHPbA/wI/n6CG9wiw/WZFlPKy5oJas4l QkG+mar3uYh3TDknPjzFNFMc9iTa4HbX+D3mjf5l+WlDaDBSEPvJ/xj7A2BFiBAn VA8f4FamoczPvv/jwlpHvpsIHH5T1aedhKheQT2QvaM5tSY1b8XHhAjpv4u+VmNZ RuGapv0dTXnVWW/vnw== =3EwW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--