From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:23:56 +0900 Message-ID: <87hcapwmj7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <4eb0089f0807111217m66d6cf4el777c197c107ce034@mail.gmail.com> <87skug6tq5.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4eb0089f0807111345h13eccdds9b2cf43370b94074@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807121340x5e26f6dbve03ef50b238f3a3a@mail.gmail.com> <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080713214648.GB1076@muc.de> <487A783B.7060603@gmail.com> <20080713232635.GD1076@muc.de> <85od51id2t.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20080714204242.GH6711@volo.donarmstrong.com> <85k5foch2r.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87ej5tkia0.fsf@anzu.internal.golden-gryphon.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1216242599 19757 80.91.229.12 (16 Jul 2008 21:09:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:09:59 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Manoj Srivastava Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 16 23:10:46 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KJEGq-0004k0-AC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:10:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58951 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KJEFx-0003Ob-Qh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:09:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KJEFt-0003OD-53 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:09:45 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KJEFp-0003Nt-OD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:09:43 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39620 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KJEFp-0003Nq-I7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:09:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mtps01.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.223]:53833) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KJEFo-00041t-Ul for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:09:41 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps01.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291451535BC; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:09:39 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0DA41A25C3; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:23:56 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <87ej5tkia0.fsf@anzu.internal.golden-gryphon.com> X-Mailer: VM ?bug? under XEmacs 21.5.21 (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100841 Archived-At: Manoj Srivastava writes: > > As one consequence, the diagnostic tool M-x list-load-path-shadows RET > > pretty much goes crazy on Debian. > > It is: > A. /usr/share/ hiding /usr/share/emacs > B. /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/ hiding > /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/ Is that "local" a typo? If not, I consider it a bug. IMO Debian should never install anything (except maybe the standard list of subdirectories) into /usr/local; that's *mine*. > Frankly, I don't call that going "pretty much crazy". but it > does make a nice sound bite in a flamewar. Well, I can infer that you just don't care about shadows, because that means that essentially all libraries have shadows. That *is* crazy, and definitely hinders diagnosing bugs which are due to a mismatch between version expected and version provided by the shadowing library. Developers and beta testers will typically have a few shadows, but in a standard installation to have *any* *is a bug*. This should be fixable by (1) linking /usr/share/emacs's .el files into the emacs-FLAVOR hierarchies, then (2) removing /usr/share/emacs from load-path. Ditto for site-lisp. > > The only sane way out is to compile and manage your own Emacs and > > packages. And that's what _all_ Emacs and XEmacs developers I know > > who are not simultaneously Debian maintainers do. > > I think this is not the case, since a trivial work around is > available (add your dir to the head of the path). This simply isn't sufficient, except for the case of a person maintaining one or a few Lisp packages. Don't bother asking for details; that's the product of experience with many small confusing problems, and if I *could* characterize the many confusingly small problems anything like that simply, I would have tried to fix those confusingly many small problems (all alike ;-), and probably I'd still be using Debianized Emacsen. The best I've heard of is Miles's hack, but he apparently uses a non-Debianized Emacsen and a .emacs hack which adds /usr/share/emacs to his load-path (and I bet it's not at the head). In other words, you're making the same mistake that Alan did. Because the set of people who actively participate in Emacs (and XEmacs) development on a day-to-day basis does not AFAICT include the Debian Emacsen maintainers and especially those who maintain the Debian Emacs Policy, there is nobody who can speak authoritatively about how the DEP and Emacs development practice could be better integrated. Nevertheless, you and Joe extrapolate from personal experience and assume that since you don't run into problems, a little discipline would solve them for the developers, too. That's just as wrong as Alan assuming that with a little more care the DEP could be adjusted so that he could use a Debianized Emacs in his usual way.