From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Release plans Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:38:24 +0900 Message-ID: <87hc97ggq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20080817073124.GA1294@muc.de> <87ljyv5gy5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20080818101802.GA2615@muc.de> <87bpzqqk7b.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20080818210927.GD2615@muc.de> <87wsidnxqp.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20080819155221.GA11524@muc.de> <871w0dcg6j.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20080825220105.GA13599@muc.de> <87prnwgyvc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20080826100216.GA2505@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1219815492 12160 80.91.229.12 (27 Aug 2008 05:38:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:38:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: hannes@saeurebad.de, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 27 07:39:05 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KYDkD-0005g5-7p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:39:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56611 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KYDjE-0004mo-Je for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:38:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KYDj8-0004mj-Nb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:37:54 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KYDj6-0004mU-FM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:37:53 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54663 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KYDj6-0004mR-Bx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:37:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:33690) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KYDj0-0004qC-T0; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:37:47 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EC847FFD; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:37:45 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9262D1A2D1A; Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:38:24 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <20080826100216.GA2505@muc.de> X-Mailer: VM ?bug? under XEmacs 21.5.21 (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:103011 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hi, Stephen, > > On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 01:54:15PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > > > Yes, we want software to be free, but no, we don't want people to > > > use this freedom in certain ways, ways which would inhibit the > > > progress of free software. > > > I'm not sure I agree with this formulation, but it's not what I'm > > talking about in this thread. > > I think it is. I think it's the abstract principle behind RMS's decision > not to put a binary module loader in Emacs. Please don't tell me what I'm talking about. Let me clarify: I don't mean to disagree that it's the abstract principle behind the decision, so it's not what I'm talking about. > If you don't like my formulation, how about reformulating it your own > way? It's a different thread, and not relevant to Emacs at all, since I don't contest your assertion that it is (part of) the basis for decision. > > Effectively discouraging non-free software is out of our control. > > "Mr. Quixote, meet Mr. Windmill...." > > It is not. There are few non-free extensions to Emacs, at least that I > have heard of. There are about a dozen of them that I've heard of (not illegal because they are extensions to XEmacs used only internally to corporations, the largest of which has about 500 users of the corporate XEmacs), and there may be a few more when XEmacs converts to GPLv3 (because some currently free extensions contain GPLv2-only code, it will no longer be legal to distribute them). > With a binary module loader, there might well be more. With a binary module loader, we might be able to develop them faster and head off the proprietary versions---there might well be less. > > > I gladly accept the freedom guaranteed by professional soldiers. > > > Just as those soldiers protect those "who don't give a damn", I feel > > > we should protect the (software) freedom of those who, for whatever > > > reason, wouldn't protect their own. > > > At the cost of the freedom of those who would *like* to use unfree > > software: they have done the calculation on the costs of lock-in, and > > like the answers they got. > > Yes, this is down in the irony and contradictions department of free > software. But as you've noted, the lock-in is largely > psychological: Who's ignoring 6 billion people now? Nothing in the GPL creates lock-in, no, but 99.9999% of humanity doesn't have the skills! So they are locked in unless the market provides for them. IMO, the free software distribution model offers very little to those people in the way of hope that their needs will be met. Jury's still out, but I don't know any office-type users who prefer a working Ubuntu to a working Windows. Windows has more of the apps they want. Some still choose the reliability etc of a GNU/Linux distro, but they're painfully aware of being behind the curve in most application areas.