From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: text-quoting-style Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 16:34:50 -0300 Message-ID: <87h9nc62ed.fsf@moondust.localdomain> References: <83r3mn50rz.fsf@gnu.org> <20150828172501.GB4882@acm.fritz.box> <87h9nfcuc9.fsf@moondust.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441222512 5931 80.91.229.3 (2 Sep 2015 19:35:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 19:35:12 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 02 21:35:07 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXDoH-0000Wj-Ct for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 21:35:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40745 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXDoH-0003Ul-6k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:35:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51712) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXDoC-0003TZ-BT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:35:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXDo7-0006in-8U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:35:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]:34760) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXDo6-0006i4-QJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:34:55 -0400 Original-Received: by iofb144 with SMTP id b144so32910380iof.1 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-type; bh=EYuaxqAz/Jd+NjY2bOBATHdXWV7gYqWYsU2SIcwCuOo=; b=z/+0M+M5hQT7ynMwtROQH6StOAi6L9yt3PVg/YPEZLBtgtiPlhMj0AQMeIxY9ABAsy +TDIYG2jK0KH5eVAvu5QOpg9YiyJ0kXMMfwJMJlGMU22S5bIQVSuDMUbq5x/sk2DNuNb 04X9ZI/JyrTZhqfA+1vPnyU7z2xWqaWXTO/qiqUYGgjY9R2mJL6VoFCamoidjGbGbPWI xGHoHlnuoRCA2jkxCHHkAFEMDiPqBlJx226+oe0bkWrQ1XTkhp0nwT1IE8TPWwIg3qEH dWyprBlOpgcnQvAAadhPz+BnKIdxRrV0OR7EG8PlEbQmvDJJ+pzwSwFgReAbLThs66rT y8Jg== X-Received: by 10.107.3.233 with SMTP id e102mr38499376ioi.160.1441222493037; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from moondust.localdomain.nodomain.none (216-13-52-94.dedicated.allstream.net. [216.13.52.94]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c97sm2356375ioj.41.2015.09.02.12.34.51 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:34:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 31 Aug 2015 13:31:55 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189483 Archived-At: At 14:31 -0300 on Monday 2015-08-31, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Same as for Alan: without an explicit description of the concrete > problems you face with curly quotes, this "+1" is meaningless. Sorry for the delay in posting this response, it's taken me two days to gather my thoughts enough to come up with something remotely coherent; there are several different issues here. It seems clear, in principle and without need for concrete examples, that if Emacs is going to cleverly display by default something different on the screen than is in a file or buffer there needs to be an easy way to turn that cleverness off and see what is actually in the file or buffer, for those occasions when the user decides that the cleverness is not helpful. I see the issues under discussion (or that maybe should be under discussion) are: 1. symbol markup 1.1. internal representation 1.2. entry in Emacs 1.3. display in Emacs 1.3.1. in text modes 1.3.2. in programming modes 1.3.3. in help 1.3.4. in info 1.4. entry and display outside Emacs 2. English quoting (single and double) 2.1. internal representation 2.2. entry in Emacs 2.3. display in Emacs 2.3.1. in text modes 2.3.2. in programming modes 2.3.3. in help 2.3.4. in info 2.4. entry and display outside Emacs Some participants in this discussion have confabulated symbol markup and English quoting. Personally I think this is a mistake, and sacrifices too much for a questionable gain in simplicity. It certainly has confused the discussion over the past few months. For symbol markup, I think that an internal representation in the traditional form with a grave accent and a single straight quote is perfectly fine. Entry is easy and there are no issues for display on legacy systems. For display on graphical displays, in help and in info it might be nice, at the user's option, to use a proportional font, curly quotes for English quoting, and a typewriter font for markedup symbols. There could also be an option (although I think it would be perverse) in text and programming modes to display symbol markup in some way different from the internal representation of grave accent / straight quote, such as curly quotes or bold text. Such options ought to be able to be turned on and off by the user on a per buffer / per mode basis. For English quoting, I think it's great that Emacs is adding (more) support for curly quotes. The internal representation needs to be (obviously, I think) that each type of quote is represented by itself. For display, each type of quote could be displayed as itself, but it would be nice to have an option to display curly quotes as straight quotes. (This is because in normal use I have Emacs use a monospaced font as small as I can make it and still see, despite a slight astigmatism, all the symbols I use (especially distinguishing `,' from `.' and `;' from `:' and `{' from `[' from `('). At these font sizes (with every monospaced font I've tried) curly quotes are almost impossible to see and are generally indistinguishable from motes of dust on my monitor. In my opinion, straight quotes just work better with a monospaced font.) Meanwhile I can imagine that others might want the option to display straight quotes as curly ones. However, we'd want to be able to turn these features on and off on a per buffer / per mode basis, because sometimes one wants to see exactly what's there, without any magic. A smart quote feature that converts straight quotes to appropriate left and right curly quotes as one types is great -- but obviously it needs to be something one can turn on and off. (And, for completeness, it would also be nice to have a feature to convert all the quotes in a buffer to straight quotes or to appropriate left and right curly quotes.) I realise that much of this already exists or is in the process of being implemented; I'm writing this to emphasise the need to be able to turn such features on and off, on a per buffer / per mode basis.