From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcin Borkowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2016 20:13:37 +0200 Message-ID: <87h9c4ar72.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <5775A512.4020803@gmail.com> <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org> <5776B89F.60704@gmail.com> <83k2h5tbtv.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467745042 2400 80.91.229.3 (5 Jul 2016 18:57:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 18:57:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 05 20:57:16 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bKVX2-0002vB-EN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2016 20:57:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57363 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKVX1-00073A-OY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:57:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39735) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKUqs-0006g2-QG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:13:43 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKUqn-0004ap-2M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:13:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([2a01:5e00:2:52::8]:60451) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bKUqm-0004aV-NN; Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:13:36 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B021150A3; Tue, 5 Jul 2016 20:13:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kwxo+YOHSi0J; Tue, 5 Jul 2016 20:13:32 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from localhost (98-171.echostar.pl [213.156.98.171]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E9251509D; Tue, 5 Jul 2016 20:13:32 +0200 (CEST) User-agent: mu4e 0.9.16; emacs 25.1.50.3 In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2a01:5e00:2:52::8 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205194 Archived-At: On 2016-07-03, at 02:05, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Org is a complex package which cannot be appreciated > > by just giving it a quick glance. > > That is the problem that concerns me. > > I am sure Org is very useful. I know that because many people say > they like using it. However, bundling together several conceptually > separate features makes it harder to start using any of them, and also > makes Emacs overall less clean. > > If these various functionalities were carefully separated out, they > could still work together, and in combination they could be just as > useful as they are now. And each one, separately, would be more > useful than it is now. I'll try to stop, but for the last time: they are not "bundled" from the user's POV!!! You really don't have to learn a lot to start being productive with Org. This is one of its main strengths. OTOH, the design of Org is a different thing: there are quite a few huge functions, and it happens sometimes that I need something for my customizations, and I have to copy a half of some function, because I can't easily hook into it. The same can be said about AUCTeX (I know because it happened to me, too), and probably a bunch of other packages, including Emacs core itself. (See e.g. the code of `mark-defun', which is one big hack around buggy `beginning-of-defun'.) So I agree that Org could be made better. Almost nobody actually wants to do it, I'm afraid... Adding new features (and even fixing bugs) is just more fun/rewarding. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science Adam Mickiewicz University