From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 13:59:48 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87h8ix7gy3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536581625 2625 195.159.176.226 (10 Sep 2018 12:13:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 12:13:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, spacibba@aol.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 10 14:13:41 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL4V-0000Wb-F5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:13:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51347 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL6b-0004T7-W6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:15:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48420) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL2m-0000wb-QY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:11:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL04-00047O-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:09:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::4]:26280) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzL04-000455-Ea; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:09:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536581343; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=cLq+cdi7bPhw15Tmn7KwuCvLfJRqfsCjG9xvsb41xMM=; b=KV8tDDRCH6XnpJXKGX4SIHnjdicjiJxPp7vNoka9yGeg9RMTDEiqWzuy+pFJgNXDE9 kLnQyvlNRfKmvZafoI5mAuQLXxSvUUCHVUyh7VnP7ccHpYpEVt4tosAqWGYHnP2TA8tR xIRcmsfYAaRzEP6mEC8mpvcq1ieQIpFPdFS5Sjvx/xNztNWYDXB6UxQKyj4mMsfUGh3Z 8slMhbJJSDjnymjPVz3w+y6g4CIdoK9cEh2vAUE5dI6SAkWgazTXlQCTVFcJGJZcHdzI ION0fU9BaeAgWqE5jRPWeoUXqHHrZX+sqr8X820qHOB65jmB3obl+s3wHQACnL0hP3bt +Qtw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u8AC89GsP (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:08:09 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fzKzA-0000xg-Jq; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:08:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 09 Sep 2018 02:07:02 -0400") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::4 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229613 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > I'm fine with encouraging people to learn these movement keys, but how > > do the available movement keys give beginners good reasons to use Emacs, > > and how do they make using it better for them? > > For the second question, they make cursor motion faster. They don't do that. Besides, it has finally occurred to me that I /like/ moving my hands. My thinking and my typing would freeze up as well if I had to have them like frozen to the home row all the time. > The fact that it can be faster is a reason to use Emacs > but I won't claim that reason is visible to people thinking > about using Emacs. Using Emacs can be faster and more efficient than using other editors for many reasons. It's movement keys can help some users and get into the way of others, and they are by far not the most important feature and not the only one giving reason to use Emacs. Making visible to potential users how using Emacs can be advantageous to them should not be blocked by over 300 lines of tutorial that go on about the movement keys in the wrong place. These 300 lines might be better used to point out what Emacs can do, and to lead users to specific documentation about the particular features. Not every user is interested in the same things. > > Tutorials which take this into account more strongly might be more > > encouraging to use Emacs in the first place, and then beginners might > > want to learn the special movement keys. > > That approach might be good, but what can we do to encourage them to > learn the cursor-motion commands later on? Let users experience that Emacs is the best editor ever, and they aren't going to need much encouragement to learn more about it all the time because they will want to do that anyway. For those who still would not want to learn the key bindings for cursor motion, encouragement would need to be turned into enforcement, and that's not exactly feasible. So if you can dedicate a whole tutorial to learning the movement keys and offer users to do it when ever they feel ready, you have vastly better chances of success and of another happy user than you have when you push and shove all these movement keys right into the face of a user who is already struggling hands up with navigating a way through an entirely new, heavy piece of software which can be very difficult to learn when you take the wrong way. > > BTW, I still don't see how anyone could move around efficiently when it > > requires to press ESC. Does it require a special keyboard? > > Nowadays, essentially all keyboards have an Alt key, so one never needs > to use ESC for cursor motion. Well, yes, only the Alt key never worked. It didn't work on the Atari ST (where Emacs crashed an awful lot), didn't work later with Linux, not with different keyboards, not for the last 25 years or so. I can't tell exactly when it started working because some time I gave up trying. It works for me since less than a week. Key bindings with M-C? Emacs always says 'C- is undefined'. So how are Emacs` key bindings for cursor movement more efficient than the cursor keys, given that the Alt key does not work? I've read the tutorial on my Atari ST and decided against using these key bindings back then. I thought they might be for computers that have severe limitations and/or keyboards without cursor keys, as a workaround to get the cursor moving at all. Eli pointed out that window managers like to use the Alt key for themselves so that it never arrives at Emacs. That is something I would definitely put into the (keyboard) tutorial where it explains the Meta key.