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From: "J.P." <jp@neverwas.me>
To: Amin Bandali <bandali@gnu.org>
Cc: emacs-erc@gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,
	50908-done@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#50908: [PATCH] erc-user-mode: Set "+i" by default
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 21:09:14 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87h7dwf6z9.fsf__37077.5826902658$1633407019$gmane$org@neverwas.me> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87lf39mqcc.fsf@gnu.org> (Amin Bandali's message of "Sun, 03 Oct 2021 23:16:51 -0400")

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2499 bytes --]

Before this gets archived, I'd like to highlight what I feel to be a
closely related issue possibly deserving some discussion at some point,
namely, the absence of user modes among ERC's other user-state tracking.

If you take a look at `erc-set-modes' and friends [1], you'll see that
those who came before kicked the can down the road slightly when it came
to this feature. From the placeholders and comments, it's unclear to me
whether they were expressing ("owning") an intent to abstain or whether
plans merely petered out (my guess).

It's also unclear to me to what extent current users just assume this
has already been implemented. (Until very recently, I could have counted
myself among the casualties.) Which is not to say I think user-mode
naivete as a conscious policy choice is the worst thing ever. However,
users who associate featurefulness with user-state omniscience probably
feel otherwise.

In terms of tradeoffs, one less obvious benefit [2] of replacing those
placeholders with the necessary smarts might be a smidge less congestion
early on in the `erc-server-flood-queue' [3]. As far as drawbacks,
there's probably some research required [4] in addition to the usual
added stress of taking on more complexity [5].

I didn't raise any of this earlier for fear of appearing dismissive of
this patch as some kind of half measure (and thereby somehow keen on
forestalling its installation). Thanks.

P.S. Someone should tell Ergo not to fire off a second 221 when a client
issues an early MODE command, as ERC now does (see attached).


Notes
~~~~~

[1] Like `erc-update-modes' and also the response handlers
    `erc-server-MODE' and `erc-server-221'.

[2] Among the traditional benefits would be modes featuring more
    prominently in the UI (see popular standalone clients), possibly
    with a legend/widget thingy to explain the letters. Third party
    packages may also appreciate being able to check modes without
    adding custom handlers.

[3] Which is helpful in testing and maybe also in module/user code
    running on MOTD hooks (and also perhaps for folks stuck using
    NickServ).

[4] That is, assuming we'd even bother keeping up with the various pet
    modes offered by the major networks. Also, the nonstandard ISUPPORT
    param "USERMODES" may be worth a quick look.

[5] For example, going this route would likely introduce at least one
    local variable along with the need to wrangle yet another timer
    (spawned from the same 376/422 handler).


[-- Attachment #2: ergo.log --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 4007 bytes --]

Version: 1
Emacs-Version: 29.0.50
*** This buffer displays all IRC protocol traffic exchanged with servers.
*** Kill it to disable logging.
*** Press `t' to toggle.*** IRC protocol logging enabled at Mon Oct  4 00:56:52 2021

2021-10-04T00:56:53.803793-0700 testnet.ergo.chat:6697 >> NICK ontime-tester
2021-10-04T00:56:53.804255-0700 testnet.ergo.chat:6697 >> USER user 0 * :Onetime Tester
2021-10-04T00:56:54.132412-0700 testnet.ergo.chat:6697 << :testnet.ergo.chat 001 ontime-tester :Welcome to the ErgoTestnet IRC Network ontime-tester
2021-10-04T00:56:54.382374-0700 testnet.ergo.chat:6697 << :testnet.ergo.chat 002 ontime-tester :Your host is testnet.ergo.chat, running version ergo-2.8.0-unreleased-0ac8b6daeaef021c
2021-10-04T00:56:54.394211-0700 testnet.ergo.chat:6697 << :testnet.ergo.chat 003 ontime-tester :This server was created Sat, 21 Aug 2021 13:45:48 UTC
2021-10-04T00:56:54.404584-0700 testnet.ergo.chat:6697 << :testnet.ergo.chat 004 ontime-tester testnet.ergo.chat ergo-2.8.0-unreleased-0ac8b6daeaef021c BERTZios CEIMRUabefhiklmnoqstuv Iabefhkloqv
2021-10-04T00:56:54.419698-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 005 ontime-tester AWAYLEN=390 BOT=B CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANLIMIT=#:100 CHANMODES=Ibe,k,fl,CEMRUimnstu CHANNELLEN=64 CHANTYPES=# ELIST=U EXCEPTS EXTBAN=,m EXTJWT=1 FORWARD=f INVEX :are supported by this server
2021-10-04T00:56:54.439267-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 005 ontime-tester KICKLEN=390 MAXLIST=beI:60 MAXTARGETS=4 MODES MONITOR=100 NETWORK=ErgoTestnet NICKLEN=32 PREFIX=(qaohv)~&@%+ RPCHAN=E RPUSER=E STATUSMSG=~&@%+ TARGMAX=NAMES:1,LIST:1,KICK:1,WHOIS:1,USERHOST:10,PRIVMSG:4,TAGMSG:4,NOTICE:4,MONITOR:100 TOPICLEN=390 :are supported by this server
2021-10-04T00:56:54.460130-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 005 ontime-tester UTF8MAPPING=rfc8265 UTF8ONLY WHOX draft/CHATHISTORY=100 :are supported by this server
2021-10-04T00:56:54.473416-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 251 ontime-tester :There are 2 users and 18 invisible on 1 server(s)
2021-10-04T00:56:54.485588-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 252 ontime-tester 1 :IRC Operators online
2021-10-04T00:56:54.497084-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 253 ontime-tester 0 :unregistered connections
2021-10-04T00:56:54.509186-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 254 ontime-tester 28 :channels formed
2021-10-04T00:56:54.520885-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 255 ontime-tester :I have 20 clients and 0 servers
2021-10-04T00:56:54.533017-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 265 ontime-tester 20 24 :Current local users 20, max 24
2021-10-04T00:56:54.546271-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 266 ontime-tester 20 24 :Current global users 20, max 24
2021-10-04T00:56:54.558975-0700 testnet.ergo.chat << :testnet.ergo.chat 422 ontime-tester :MOTD File is missing
2021-10-04T00:56:54.566792-0700 ErgoTestnet >> MODE ontime-tester +i
2021-10-04T00:56:54.578742-0700 ErgoTestnet << :testnet.ergo.chat 221 ontime-tester +Zi
2021-10-04T00:56:54.591984-0700 ErgoTestnet << :testnet.ergo.chat NOTICE ontime-tester :This server is in debug mode and is logging all user I/O. If you do not wish for everything you send to be readable by the server owner(s), please disconnect.
2021-10-04T00:56:54.814795-0700 ErgoTestnet << :testnet.ergo.chat 221 ontime-tester +Zi
2021-10-04T00:56:58.567766-0700 ErgoTestnet >> PING 1633334219
2021-10-04T00:56:58.733051-0700 ErgoTestnet << :testnet.ergo.chat PONG testnet.ergo.chat 1633334219
2021-10-04T00:57:28.586194-0700 ErgoTestnet >> PING 1633334249
2021-10-04T00:57:28.752623-0700 ErgoTestnet << :testnet.ergo.chat PONG testnet.ergo.chat 1633334249
2021-10-04T00:57:47.511498-0700 ErgoTestnet >> QUIT :\x02ERC\x02 (IRC client for Emacs 29.0.50)
2021-10-04T00:57:47.680292-0700 ErgoTestnet << :ontime-tester!~u@ntyzffp6cqekn.oragono QUIT :Quit: \x02ERC\x02 (IRC client for Emacs 29.0.50)
2021-10-04T00:57:47.690486-0700 ErgoTestnet << ERROR :Quit: \x02ERC\x02 (IRC client for Emacs 29.0.50)

[-- Attachment #3: ergo-server-buffer.log --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 1677 bytes --]




[Mon Oct  4 2021]
Opening connection..  [00:56]
*** Welcome to the ErgoTestnet IRC Network ontime-tester
*** Your host is testnet.ergo.chat, running version
    ergo-2.8.0-unreleased-0ac8b6daeaef021c
*** This server was created Sat, 21 Aug 2021 13:45:48 UTC
*** testnet.ergo.chat ergo-2.8.0-unreleased-0ac8b6daeaef021c BERTZios
    CEIMRUabefhiklmnoqstuv
*** AWAYLEN=390 BOT=B CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANLIMIT=#:100
    CHANMODES=Ibe,k,fl,CEMRUimnstu CHANNELLEN=64 CHANTYPES=# ELIST=U EXCEPTS
    EXTBAN=,m EXTJWT=1 FORWARD=f INVEX are supported by this server
*** KICKLEN=390 MAXLIST=beI:60 MAXTARGETS=4 MODES MONITOR=100
    NETWORK=ErgoTestnet NICKLEN=32 PREFIX=(qaohv)~&@%+ RPCHAN=E RPUSER=E
    STATUSMSG=~&@%+
    TARGMAX=NAMES:1,LIST:1,KICK:1,WHOIS:1,USERHOST:10,PRIVMSG:4,TAGMSG:4,NOTICE:4,MONITOR:100
    TOPICLEN=390 are supported by this server
*** UTF8MAPPING=rfc8265 UTF8ONLY WHOX draft/CHATHISTORY=100 are supported by
    this server
*** There are 2 users and 18 invisible on 1 server(s)
*** 1 operator(s) online
*** 0 unknown connection(s)
*** 28 channels formed
*** I have 20 clients and 0 servers
*** Current local users 20, max 24
*** Current global users 20, max 24
*** MOTD File is missing
*** User modes for ontime-tester: +Zi
-testnet.ergo.chat- This server is in debug mode and is logging all user
		 I/O. If you do not wish for everything you send to be
		 readable by the server owner(s), please disconnect.
*** User modes for ontime-tester: +Zi
*** ontime-tester (~u@ntyzffp6cqekn.oragono) has quit: Quit: ERC (IRC client
    for Emacs 29.0.50)  [00:57]
==> ERROR from testnet.ergo.chat: Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 29.0.50)


*** ERC finished ***

      parent reply	other threads:[~2021-10-05  4:09 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-09-30  0:08 bug#50908: [PATCH] erc-user-mode: Set "+i" by default Stefan Kangas
2021-10-01  5:47 ` Amin Bandali
     [not found] ` <871r55i9ee.fsf@gnu.org>
2021-10-01 11:15   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-10-01 12:23   ` J.P.
     [not found]   ` <CADwFkmm+2A+C47daU6Qqmkc85jWxrMmhJ_-ZKKcrn1euPmEN3w@mail.gmail.com>
2021-10-02  2:34     ` Amin Bandali
     [not found]   ` <87bl49x7ay.fsf@neverwas.me>
2021-10-02  2:38     ` Amin Bandali
     [not found]     ` <87ilyg5exd.fsf@gnu.org>
2021-10-04  1:47       ` Stefan Kangas
     [not found]       ` <CADwFkmn=Cehyw3-zy5xoE+dR6sFnQf-UkZ4C=QYuxh0Wg=1cag@mail.gmail.com>
2021-10-04  3:16         ` Amin Bandali
     [not found]         ` <87lf39mqcc.fsf@gnu.org>
2021-10-05  4:09           ` J.P. [this message]

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