From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Howard Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Elisp licensing Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 12:10:39 -0900 Message-ID: <87h680cmy8.fsf@librehacker.com> References: <87mshwphv5.fsf@librehacker.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17866"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 21 22:11:30 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tEESY-0004UJ-RO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 22:11:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEERs-0002No-Rg; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 16:10:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEERq-0002Ne-SC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 16:10:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([212.103.80.155]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEERn-0003y2-U6; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 16:10:45 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mx.kolabnow.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6A23069ABB; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 22:10:38 +0100 (CET) Authentication-Results: ext-mx-out013.mykolab.com (amavis); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) reason="pass (just generated, assumed good)" header.d=kolabnow.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kolabnow.com; h= content-type:content-type:mime-version:message-id:date:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:subject:from:from:received :received:received; s=dkim20240523; t=1732223438; x=1734037839; bh=CDxtUHd30Ts6nYSqF+LU/zYnR+0Mtdz9SXhY9PYFy+E=; b=KXwRT4yExrqO M7954zz2hXZ7K0YlkNl+ikaUtME5/HXc3qXwq29afRXdA0I3fTIv9IcKDwR7B2o4 vsLS2WsvRCFqZeaKydWmtMw6uGssZkVOt/b96/Wre8A/JeCaGYn2XECbArzK7l6B 6DCn8fCUPvGvKoLmmAjJxcuoJDG1FrJQQZyy0lf1ljDHrSAR0SuoHrh8MEFFfTce A6HZKhGOKA1z7siHayna72lZnqTaDNGgmp7QVff0RuE8vRwhsboVP4+1U2JxE2ea wSn5H/vffICMGVnwhhUifaAjq0/J+KPsatff8mOm4fDccbe/4rYvf3ALd8vg1gLk znbVa8kYGw== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mykolab.com Original-Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out013.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with ESMTP id NyINgYhA9Sw4; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 22:10:38 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from int-mx011.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.11]) by mx.kolabnow.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 224E33069AB9; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 22:10:37 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from ext-subm010.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.10]) by int-mx011.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE6C53122E09; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 22:10:37 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:58:40 -0500") Received-SPF: none client-ip=212.103.80.155; envelope-from=christopher@librehacker.com; helo=mx.kolabnow.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325563 Archived-At: Thank you for your response. Thank you also for your pivotal work in launching the free software movement and developing the wonderful Gnu Emacs software. To clarify: myself personally, I would prefer to see all Elisp code licensed under the GPLv3+. Rather than wanting to encourage using other licenses for Elisp program, I was actually concerned about how to relate to Elisp projects I've found that that are released under other licenses, in particular non-copyleft free software licenses. I was wondering, since Emacs is licensed under the GPLv3+, if Elisp programs legally must also be released under the GPLv3+. It appears you answer that question with this statement: > Legally they need to be under licenses compatible with GPLv3+, > if they are meant for use in combination with GNU Emacs. > Morally, it is always good to use GPLv3+, and there is rarely > a good reason to use anything else. So, Elisp programs "if they are meant for use in combination with GNU Emacs" legally must be released under a GPLv3+ compatible license, but not necessarily the GPLv3+ itself? > > Maybe with exceptions for programs written for Guile Elisp > > That is rather vague, so I won't say it is absurd, but why would > it ever be better to use a weaker license for Emacs Lisp code? > Copyleft supports freedom, so in general it is better to copyleft > a program than not to. > > or > > one of the non-Gnu Emacs clones that are being developed, like Gypsum > > or Rune. > > What are those? Why would they make it better not to uee copyleft? Again, to emphasize, I would prefer that all Elisp programs would be released under the GPLv3+. I understand you to be saying that this is not legally necessary, though it is legally necessary that all Elisp programs be released under a GPLv3+ compatible license "if they are meant for use in combination with GNU Emacs". From my understanding, all Elisp programs are meant for use in combination with GNU Emacs, except for the following possible exceptions: - Elisp code that was meant to be run only by the Guile Scheme interpreter, which is able to run code from some other programming languages - Elisp code that was meant to be run only by one of the Emacs clones not produced by the Gnu Emacs project. Two such projects I am aware of are "Gypsum", which attempts to be a from-scratch clone of Gnu Emacs, but built on Guile Scheme; and secondly there is Rune, which also attempts to be a from-scratch clone of Gnu Emacs, but is built on Rust instead of on C. Actually Rune is released under the GPL-3.0 and Gypsum is released under the AGPL-3. But in theory at least one could have an Emacs clone, capable of running Elisp, that is not released under a GPL license. -- Christopher Howard