From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Manoj Srivastava Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:17:06 -0500 Organization: Manoj Srivastava's Home Message-ID: <87fxq9iie5.fsf@anzu.internal.golden-gryphon.com> References: <4eb0089f0807111217m66d6cf4el777c197c107ce034@mail.gmail.com> <87skug6tq5.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4eb0089f0807111345h13eccdds9b2cf43370b94074@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807121340x5e26f6dbve03ef50b238f3a3a@mail.gmail.com> <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080713214648.GB1076@muc.de> <487A783B.7060603@gmail.com> <20080713232635.GD1076@muc.de> <85od51id2t.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20080714204242.GH6711@volo.donarmstrong.com> <85k5foch2r.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87ej5tkia0.fsf@anzu.internal.golden-gryphon.com> <87hcapwmj7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1216246680 886 80.91.229.12 (16 Jul 2008 22:18:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:18:00 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 17 00:18:48 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KJFKR-000590-Hb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:18:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35796 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KJFJZ-0001XN-1C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:17:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KJFJT-0001Wi-MV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:17:31 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KJFJS-0001Vw-GL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:17:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55777 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KJFJS-0001Vt-9t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:17:30 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2]:42972 helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KJFJR-0001a5-Ds for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:17:30 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KJFJQ-0007no-DJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:17:28 +0000 Original-Received: from tiamat.golden-gryphon.com ([204.117.95.118]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:17:28 +0000 Original-Received: from srivasta by tiamat.golden-gryphon.com with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:17:28 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-Lines: 96 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: tiamat.golden-gryphon.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACYAAAAwCAMAAABKbPgaAAAAM1BMVEUAAADIjH/0rp1KPz79 0b+ic2nlpJc2Ly2AY17VlYb4uqi2gHQXFBN2WVXgno5iT02Xa2Nx+jaIAAACVElEQVQ4jeWU23bj IAxFLUAggQX6/6+dI9LGTpo+9mlYiXNhc3TnOP50naZE0tqvgEk+soutnNfQ8yPTWMTENhNrjI+Y +N7POVt8tAzpn2vJlsmttbyfrdkP7hx5iezteGzsbOts7xT+tC1mcG+LtRP2X/16bEQExuyx1uZW vscrAWUT8aE0aDBeBuw8nS5u4WgWyDCllOZUBeyWgbWbGrBsTDpTx0qpphlcYPcgJLvBXFClPMg5 6WH2JidLIAaDF5aAed7uPTH4bjw0bZvfajp2tHc1F+cBm+Vr9YomGSwNhbmcczYEWUu5MBpYvCLV F+ZIKwQfYB+CBXnIRQFvIRhK6l96PemsFLEPFxi+MPxiTYH0Ave1InPsIYes3NJb42ytBSmmysyj lIQYHJm6Im1WbQ0kWMesKFRFPKTDzJ3GhWUn2KWKEkWlKthoACLm2eWJQQh2qKbAUgQxa+8TVjn1 aySm8656ookCfCc5TRzvnZ6YOu3NpHg+uR5YuRkNF/b5IHq5Y7Ve6c2+sR4hqIZ3+5DCt3ukh8Eo vFIXVJxqfMdbkd/BF3YaQkB/2RIUHPMS7RLVAHefrYzWZVQ/ei4peBsROFLi90ltQyvF5I05t4Zs L4C9DODJ2AZCUf8UitGjCIdfx15QQkfZibTOGT3edxns5fY6F2rstKcTwiiaJnQwvYkdzTlaTqNH IkSmGdLrON45tGsMNDoSYr4bxH5emHEFaoFjKBahHXFXfLx9cR9p6ejJXihuxPz57gWHZkWovbPl 9gsU8eImtBi++3D+f+sfT/Mg79fyEz8AAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-URL: http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ Mail-Copies-To: never X-Face: #q.#]5@vq!Jz+E0t_/; Y^gTjR\T^"B'fbeuVGiyKrvbfKJl!^e|e:iu(kJ6c|QYB57LP*|t &YlP~HF/=h:GA6o6W@I#deQL-%#.6]!z:6Cj0kd#4]>*D, |0djf'CVlXkI, >aV4\}?d_KEqsN{Nnt7 78"OsbQ["56/!nisvyB/uA5Q.{)gm6?q.j71ww.>b9b]-sG8zNt%KkIa>xWg&1VcjZk[hBQ>]j~`Wq Xl,y1a!(>6`UM{~'X[Y_,Bv+}=L\SS*mA8=s;!=O`ja|@PEzb&i0}Qp,`Z\:6:OmRi* Cancel-Lock: sha1:v4bgs5NWRBUCxl/D/bo3I5Va+qQ= X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100846 Archived-At: On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:23:56 +0900, Stephen J Turnbull said: > Manoj Srivastava writes: >> > As one consequence, the diagnostic tool M-x list-load-path-shadows >> > RET pretty much goes crazy on Debian. >> >> It is: >> A. /usr/share/ hiding /usr/share/emacs >> B. /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/ hiding >> /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/ > Is that "local" a typo? If not, I consider it a bug. IMO Debian > should never install anything (except maybe the standard list of > subdirectories) into /usr/local; that's *mine*. I do not think it is a typo. Debian installs an empty directory there, and never removes it; it is so that you can drop stuff in there to override the vendor installed stuff. I consider that a feature. >> Frankly, I don't call that going "pretty much crazy". but it does >> make a nice sound bite in a flamewar. > Well, I can infer that you just don't care about shadows, because that > means that essentially all libraries have shadows. > That *is* crazy, and definitely hinders diagnosing bugs which are due > to a mismatch between version expected and version provided by the > shadowing library. Developers and beta testers will typically have a > few shadows, but in a standard installation to have *any* *is a bug*. > This should be fixable by (1) linking /usr/share/emacs's .el files > into the emacs-FLAVOR hierarchies, then (2) removing /usr/share/emacs > from load-path. Ditto for site-lisp. Hmm. You mean for every flavour of emacs, symlink the files from /usr/share/emacs/ hierarchy into /usr/share/ hierachy, and then drop the former? >> > The only sane way out is to compile and manage your own Emacs and >> > packages. And that's what _all_ Emacs and XEmacs developers I know >> > who are not simultaneously Debian maintainers do. >> >> I think this is not the case, since a trivial work around is >> available (add your dir to the head of the path). > This simply isn't sufficient, except for the case of a person > maintaining one or a few Lisp packages. Don't bother asking for > details; that's the product of experience with many small confusing > problems, and if I *could* characterize the many confusingly small > problems anything like that simply, I would have tried to fix those > confusingly many small problems (all alike ;-), and probably I'd still > be using Debianized Emacsen. The best I've heard of is Miles's hack, > but he apparently uses a non-Debianized Emacsen and a .emacs hack > which adds /usr/share/emacs to his load-path (and I bet it's not at > the head). I have in the past maintained Gnus, and still maintain VM, and I use CVS versions of org-mode, Emacs, DVC, and a couple of other minoir emacs packages. While I might not add much of my code to htese packages, I do routinely do git pull's and compiles and use them in my almost nihtly recompiles of CVS emacs. But hey, perhaps all the problems are indeed far above my head. It is just odd that they do not seem to impede my playing with custom lisp code and development versions of Emacs. > In other words, you're making the same mistake that Alan did. Because > the set of people who actively participate in Emacs (and XEmacs) > development on a day-to-day basis does not AFAICT include the Debian > Emacsen maintainers and especially those who maintain the Debian Emacs > Policy, there is nobody who can speak authoritatively about how the > DEP and Emacs development practice could be better integrated. I am one of the people responsible for Debian policies. ANd while I am not currently active in Debian Emacs policy, I was one of the people involved in crafting it way back when. > Nevertheless, you and Joe extrapolate from personal experience and > assume that since you don't run into problems, a little discipline > would solve them for the developers, too. That's just as wrong as > Alan assuming that with a little more care the DEP could be adjusted > so that he could use a Debianized Emacs in his usual way. Since I am actually doing all this, I can see how I can slip into the mistake of assuming it can be done. Anyway, if you do not want to engage into why normal Debian was of using Debianized emacsen do not work for you, and you are happy with your current set up, that's no skin off my nose either. manoj -- A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you. Ramsey Clark Manoj Srivastava 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C