From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:36:26 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87fx0rw76d.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrubfd8p.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <848w6ndwn0.fsf@cs.bham.ac.uk> <87y6ekevet.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <87bpbgq32f.fsf@unm.edu> <87hbl857xp.fsf@kzsu.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291834438 25241 80.91.229.12 (8 Dec 2010 18:53:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2010 18:53:58 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 19:53:55 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQP9F-0000AA-TR for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 19:53:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53569 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQP9F-0006wO-Cd for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2010 13:53:53 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!news2.euro.net!newsfeed.freenet.ag!news.netcologne.de!ramfeed1.netcologne.de!newsfeed.arcor.de!newsspool3.arcor-online.net!news.arcor.de.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:mHZtYxHRspTixrzrt084+V39CYk= Original-Lines: 61 Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2010 12:36:27 CEST Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: d4e3bd09.newsspool1.arcor-online.net Original-X-Trace: DXC=I4UjoYH]jMm>jlK2>IgHGdic==]BZ:afn4Fo<]lROoRa<`=YMgDjhgb?HICc^O2o8a1_LiI6ENVam3>5MOK` List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:75831 Archived-At: Joseph Brenner writes: > Evans Winner writes: > > But this isn't the solution to the problem at hand. > >> I have read a number of posts on the devel list discussing the >> question of how to communicate with Emacs users about things like >> proposed changes to defaults. > > The right answer is that you should not be changing the defaults. > > If we really can't convince the developers that they need to respect > backwards compatibility, an actual solution to the problem might > be something like creating a switch that needs to be flipped on to > get the new whizzy behavior, something like: > > (setq modernize-emacs t) > > You then recommend that the default ~/.emacs for *new* users should > include that line. That means that new users live in a separate universe where they can't expect older users to be able to help them with their setup and usage problems. Because the older users don't even have a clue about what new users might be working with. It also means that older users never will get to see newer user interface features, even if they might better fit their workflow. "In your face" is a strategy where people actually get to see things and make a conscious decision about keeping or leaving them. It is a matter of courtesy to make any feature work as well as possible before confronting users with it by default. Something like font-locking required a lot of work before Emacs developers felt it could be made the default (while it has been the default for much longer with XEmacs, with partly dire consequences because of less maturity). Emacs evolves, and its community evolves and grows. And there is something to be said for the community members to know what they are roughly talking about when having an exchange about Emacs. And that implies a choice between evolution or stagnation of the default behavior. Emacs should show the best and most consistent behavior out of the box, whether or not that implies change. And that's what the discussion, if it is to be taken seriously, is supposed to be about. My personal preference would be that when recording and replaying macros, the used functions for arrow keys should be logical rather than visual mode commands. The current state is not satisfactory with regard to macro recording. Which does not mean that I don't like it as a default behavior otherwise. -- David Kastrup