a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Don Saklad]

a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... What key is the Meta key?  PCs?... Macs?...

b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 05.07.2013 um 21:03 schrieb Don Saklad:

>  What key is the Meta key?  PCs?... Macs?…

On the Mac it can be fn, ctrl, alt, cmd.

> 
> b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

In a terminal emulation M-x does not exist, you have to use Esc-x. The GNU Emacs variants with some windowing support also support the Esc-x work-around.

--
Greetings

  Pete

Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind.
	- D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Emanuel Berg]

Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes:

>>  b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x
>
> In a terminal emulation M-x does not exist, you have to use
> Esc-x. The GNU Emacs variants with some windowing support also
> support the Esc-x work-around.

On paleo-computers, was the Escape key placed anywhere else than
it is on today's keyboards? The reason I ask is - well, just try
hitting a couple of familiar shortcuts, but instead of Meta, use
Escape. I think it would take a master at the accordion to be
productive using that.

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes:
>
>>>  b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x
>>
>> In a terminal emulation M-x does not exist, you have to use
>> Esc-x. The GNU Emacs variants with some windowing support also
>> support the Esc-x work-around.
>
> On paleo-computers, was the Escape key placed anywhere else than
> it is on today's keyboards? The reason I ask is - well, just try
> hitting a couple of familiar shortcuts, but instead of Meta, use
> Escape. I think it would take a master at the accordion to be
> productive using that.

Yes, some early keyboards had instead of TAB:
http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/kbd_top.shtml?large
Notice that it is also C-[ 
So you can type  C-[ x   or M-x or ESC x

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}.  
You know you've been lisping too long when you see a recent picture of George 
Lucas and think "Wait, I thought John McCarthy was dead!" -- Dalek_Baldwin

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Peter Dyballa]

Am 05.07.2013 um 22:57 schrieb Emanuel Berg:

> On paleo-computers, was the Escape key placed anywhere else than
> it is on today's keyboards?

No, they had no need for such a key. They had a different key to release the punch card. (And another key to read-in the card deck.)

--
Greetings

  Pete

Spam will be a thing of the past in two years' time.
				– Bill Gates, Jan 2004

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Bob Proulx]

Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Peter Dyballa writes:
> >>  b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x
> >
> > In a terminal emulation M-x does not exist, you have to use
> > Esc-x. The GNU Emacs variants with some windowing support also
> > support the Esc-x work-around.

That isn't precisely true.  The support for Meta depends upon the
terminal.  It just so happens that meta-chars conflicts with UTF-8 and
so for the most part you want UTF-8 more than a true Meta key that
sets the high bit of the character.  So we chose to configure
terminals so that Meta sends Escape.  At least I do.  And then
everything works.

> On paleo-computers, was the Escape key placed anywhere else than
> it is on today's keyboards? The reason I ask is - well, just try
> hitting a couple of familiar shortcuts, but instead of Meta, use
> Escape. I think it would take a master at the accordion to be
> productive using that.

Yes.  The escape key has been located in other locations.  Here is an
example.  On the HP HIL keyboard it was left of the left shift key.
(Also note that control was left of the A.)  A good keyboard layout
for the touch typist.  Everything was relatively close to the home
row.

  http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=575

Mostly escape has been located in the upper left "somewhere".
Although not always left of the 1 key.

Bob

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Thomas Shannon]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes:
>
>>>  b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x
>>
>> In a terminal emulation M-x does not exist, you have to use
>> Esc-x. The GNU Emacs variants with some windowing support also
>> support the Esc-x work-around.
>
> On paleo-computers, was the Escape key placed anywhere else than
> it is on today's keyboards? The reason I ask is - well, just try
> hitting a couple of familiar shortcuts, but instead of Meta, use
> Escape. I think it would take a master at the accordion to be
> productive using that.

1)  Totally agree.

2) Think how bad it would be if, like the way people usually use the
meta key, you would have to simultaneously hold down Esc and the key.
At least you can press Esc, let up on it, then press the second key and it
works fine.  Still awkward but, as I don't know how to play accordion,
thank goodness its much easier.  :)

Tom S.

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Thomas Shannon <tshanno@bearingthenews.com> writes:

> Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:
>
>> Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa@Web.DE> writes:
>>
>>>>  b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x
>>>
>>> In a terminal emulation M-x does not exist, you have to use
>>> Esc-x. The GNU Emacs variants with some windowing support also
>>> support the Esc-x work-around.
>>
>> On paleo-computers, was the Escape key placed anywhere else than
>> it is on today's keyboards? The reason I ask is - well, just try
>> hitting a couple of familiar shortcuts, but instead of Meta, use
>> Escape. I think it would take a master at the accordion to be
>> productive using that.
>
> 1)  Totally agree.
>
> 2) Think how bad it would be if, like the way people usually use the
> meta key, you would have to simultaneously hold down Esc and the key.
> At least you can press Esc, let up on it, then press the second key and it
> works fine.  Still awkward but, as I don't know how to play accordion,
> thank goodness its much easier.  :)

On a TTY, (see picture url in my other answer), I'm pretty sure you
could leave ESC down while pressing the other key.   Of course, it
didn't flip a bit on the next byte sent like shift or control, but
instead sent a byte 27, but for the typist, it was pretty much the same
UX.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/
A bad day in () is better than a good day in {}.  
You know you've been lisping too long when you see a recent picture of George 
Lucas and think "Wait, I thought John McCarthy was dead!" -- Dalek_Baldwin

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Emanuel Berg]

Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> writes:

> A good keyboard layout for the touch typist.  Everything was
> relatively close to the home row.

"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:

> ... for the typist, it was pretty much the same UX.

What is all this "typist" talk? What is a touch typist?

I take pride in my typing skills, and my experience is that that
is sort of unusual even for computer people. A lot of people that
I met, that had comparable computer skills to me, really couldn't
type at all - they could, but slow and with lots of mistakes. And
this didn't seem to bother them at all!

Also, I always encourage people that uses the Swedish keyboard
layout to switch the the US, because then you have much faster
access to the brackets, semicolon, and more, that you need when
you program. To this, people often say "I don't care" or something
similar - wait - you don't care how you type, and this is what you
do all day long?

I think coding is nowadays almost as much a physical thing than it
is analytic. And 90% of my configuration work has been related
to this. For example, I have put hours of getting all my shortcuts
to be in the 'A' to 'F' and 'J' to ';' areas of the keyboard, so I
never have to reach. Scrolling D and F, navigation J, I, K and L,
and so on. Here is an example:

http://superuser.com/a/610507/106960

Also, in Emacs-w3m, I switch tabs with J and K - instead of the
default (hold tight!) C-c C-p and C-c C-n - especially in
Emacs-w3m, where there is no typing, the whole keyboard is
available for shortcuts - why do they use such long sequences?!

What's going on on? Am I normal? :)

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>
() Sun, 07 Jul 2013 20:17:13 +0200

   What's going on on? Am I normal? :)

Yes, when standing still.  All other times, you are oblique.
(Engineering joke, yuk yuk. :-D)

I think i used to take pride in typing skills, as you described.  Then i
realized the less i type the less bugs i produce.  Nowadays, in the race
for slowness, the body is "ahead", but the head is not far behind.  :-D
I expect that they will tie, when i die.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
GPG key: 4C807502

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Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Jambunathan K]

> I think coding is nowadays almost as much a physical thing than it
> is analytic. And 90% of my configuration work has been related
> to this. For example, I have put hours of getting all my shortcuts
> to be in the 'A' to 'F' and 'J' to ';' areas of the keyboard, so I
> never have to reach. Scrolling D and F, navigation J, I, K and L,
> and so on. Here is an example:
>
> http://superuser.com/a/610507/106960
>
> Also, in Emacs-w3m, I switch tabs with J and K - instead of the
> default (hold tight!) C-c C-p and C-c C-n - especially in
> Emacs-w3m, where there is no typing, the whole keyboard is
> available for shortcuts - why do they use such long sequences?!

    Why try so hard?
    You act like a retard! [1]

    What does Emacs lack?
    (I pity) You had (so) much to hack!

    You are (The) Master of (The) Way
    If only you throw your .emacs away.

    Of Tao (of Emacs) I speak,
    (Frankly) Where is the need to tweak?


> What's going on on? Am I normal? :)

You are not normal.  You are super-human!

----------------------------------------------------------------

[1] This is poetic licence.  I mean no dis-respect to the OP or hurt the
    sensitive among men, women or children.  Take it in good spirit.

Re: a) What ways can Meta be put in a command?... b) What's the difference between Esc-x and M-x

[Emanuel Berg]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> [1] This is poetic licence.  I mean no dis-respect to the OP or
> hurt the sensitive among men, women or children.  Take it in
> good spirit.

Actually, I thought your poem, and the jokes of Thien-Thi Nguyen,
were so good that I for an instant suspected that you had a
database with one joke for every situation.

But I'm certainly glad that you understand what I'm writing.

Especially that poem is a bit scary - I mean, those other guys,
what happened to them? Or, are *you* them?

-- 
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573