bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

1. C-x b *scratch*
2. M-x set-input-method RET hebrew RET
3. C-h C-\

   Note that the table that is shown suggests that the Latin characters
   should be typed in uppercase.

4. Type the following chars - SUS AKUO - See what happens.
5. Type the follwoing chars - sus akuo -  See what happens.

What needs to happen:

Either take the input chars case-insensitively or use lowercase latin
letters in the help table.


In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.5 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1)
 of 2013-11-04 on debian-6.05
Bzr revision: 114933 monnier@iro.umontreal.ca-20131104042959-sy10svhxghg2z9ei
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10707000
System Description:	Debian GNU/Linux 6.0.5 (squeeze)

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_IN
  locale-coding-system: iso-latin-1-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  eldoc-post-insert-mode: t
  url-handler-mode: t
  global-hi-lock-mode: t
  hi-lock-mode: t
  which-function-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  icomplete-mode: t
  electric-pair-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  outline-minor-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  column-number-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
o <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> C-x 1 <up> <up> <up> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<escape> x r e p o r t - C-g <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <escape> x r e p o r t - e m <tab> 
<return> H e b r w e <backspace> <backspace> w e <backspace> 
<backspace> e SPC w i n <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> w SPC <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> h e 
b r e w SPC i n p u t SPC m e t h o d SPC <backspace> 
: SPC I s SPC i t <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> SPC 
+ SPC c a s e SPC i <backspace> s e n s i t i t l y 
C-a C-k h e r b e r e <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
r e w SPC + SPC Q u a <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
q u C-x b <return> C-h k C-h C-\ C-x 1 <escape> x s 
e t - i n p u t <tab> <return> C-g <escape> x r e p 
o r t - e m a c s <tab> <return>

Recent messages:
Mark set
Marking matching files...
8 matching files marked.
Killed 149 lines.
Mark set
C-h \ is undefined
Quit
End of buffer [3 times]

Quit

Load-path shadows:
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~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-feed hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-feed
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-archive hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-archive
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-faces hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-faces
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-src hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-src
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-comint hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-comint
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-shen hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-shen
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-dot hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-dot
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-sqlite hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-sqlite
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-macs hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-macs
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-timer hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-timer
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-ledger hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-ledger
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-ctags hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-ctags
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-mscgen hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-mscgen
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-plantuml hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-plantuml
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-table hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-table
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-emacs-lisp hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-emacs-lisp
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-matlab hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-matlab
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-install hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-install
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-clojure hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-clojure
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-js hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-js
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-indent hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-indent
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-mobile hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-mobile
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-list hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-list
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-bibtex hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-bibtex
~/src/org-mode/lisp/ob-R hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/ob-R
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-mouse hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-mouse
~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-gnus hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-gnus
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~/src/org-mode/lisp/org-crypt hides /home/kjambunathan/src/emacs/trunk/lisp/org/org-crypt
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Features:
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byte-compile cconv edmacro kmacro derived org-macro org-footnote
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org-version ob-emacs-lisp ob ob-tangle org-src easy-mmode ob-ref ob-lob
ob-table ob-keys ob-exp ob-comint comint ansi-color ring ob-core ob-eval
org-compat advice help-fns org-macs find-func cal-menu calendar
cal-loaddefs gnus-sum nnoo gnus-group gnus-undo nnmail mail-source
gnus-start gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range message cl-macs gv format-spec
rfc822 mml mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231
rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader gnus-win gnus
gnus-ems nnheader gnus-util mail-utils mm-util mail-prsvr wid-edit cl
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cc-styles cc-align cc-engine cc-vars cc-defs org-loaddefs time-date
tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar
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prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar
mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev
minibuffer nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files
text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule
custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process
dbusbind gfilenotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 20:33:32 +0530
> 
> 
> 1. C-x b *scratch*
> 2. M-x set-input-method RET hebrew RET
> 3. C-h C-\
> 
>    Note that the table that is shown suggests that the Latin characters
>    should be typed in uppercase.
> 
> 4. Type the following chars - SUS AKUO - See what happens.

With the current trunk (revno 114942), I see "SUS AKUO".

> 5. Type the follwoing chars - sus akuo -  See what happens.

I see "דוד שלום".

These are the expected results.  Please tell what you see on your
system, instead of letting us guess.  Please never assume that others
will see the same as you do, that just wastes time we could use for
fixing whatever bugs are there.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> With the current trunk (revno 114942), I see "SUS AKUO".

I get English.  I expect Hebrew not English.  My expectation is based on
what the C-h C-\ table suggests.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Cc: 15800@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 22:02:12 +0530
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > With the current trunk (revno 114942), I see "SUS AKUO".
> 
> I get English.  I expect Hebrew not English.  My expectation is based on
> what the C-h C-\ table suggests.

Then I think there's a misunderstanding here: the table shows the
Latin characters in upper case because that's what the shifted keys
are supposed to produce -- upper-case Latin letters.

IOW, you cannot produce lower-case Latin letters with this input
method, you need to switch out of the input method first.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Then I think there's a misunderstanding here: the table shows the
> Latin characters in upper case because that's what the shifted keys
> are supposed to produce -- upper-case Latin letters.
>
> IOW, you cannot produce lower-case Latin letters with this input
> method, you need to switch out of the input method first.

I don't want English at all. I don't want to mix English and Hebrew.  I
just wnat a buffer with Hebrew and nothing else.

The input table says type 'S' to get some hebrew char.  If I type that
char, I don't get hebrew.  But if I type lowercase 's', then I get the
required hebrew char.

So, FIX THE HELP TEXT IN INPUT TABLE so that it replaces 'S' with 's'
(likewise for other chars) or UPCASE THE INPUT CHAR before transcoding
it.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Cc: 15800@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 22:39:30 +0530
> 
> The input table says type 'S' to get some hebrew char.  If I type that
> char, I don't get hebrew.  But if I type lowercase 's', then I get the
> required hebrew char.

The 'S' label does not mean "press upper-case S", it says that this
key will produce an upper-case S when used with Shift, and "some
hebrew char" when used without Shift.

I think this is the convention with every input method that shows the
keyboard layout.  E.g., try greek-postfix.

I wonder what can we say in the introductory text before the layout,
to make this point clear.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 19:45:02 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: 15800@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> The 'S' label does not mean "press upper-case S", it says that this
> key will produce an upper-case S when used with Shift, and "some
> hebrew char" when used without Shift.

IOW, this is supposed to show the actual labels on the keyboard keys.
Those show which character will be produced, not what to press.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> The 'S' label does not mean "press upper-case S", it says that this
> key will produce an upper-case S when used with Shift, and "some
> hebrew char" when used without Shift.

If English Characters are not first class citizens of the script under
consideration, why even have them in first place.  Having a Uppercase
ASCII but not having lowercase ASCII seems pretty useless to me. i.e.,
it gives me a feature that I don't need in the first place.

Anyways, this bug is a good excuse to re-look at why such a decision was
made and whether it is actually useful in practice.

ps-1: I am using English and ASCII in a crude way.  But it is clear what
I mean.

ps-2: Only reason uppercase ASCII may have been needed was to type out
Roman Numerals while editing legendary texts.

As for docstring, I need to sleep over it.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Cc: 15800@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 00:05:59 +0530
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The 'S' label does not mean "press upper-case S", it says that this
> > key will produce an upper-case S when used with Shift, and "some
> > hebrew char" when used without Shift.
> 
> If English Characters are not first class citizens of the script under
> consideration, why even have them in first place.  Having a Uppercase
> ASCII but not having lowercase ASCII seems pretty useless to me. i.e.,
> it gives me a feature that I don't need in the first place.

Simply enough, this is how the Hebrew keyboard look like.  The input
method simply emulates that.

> Anyways, this bug is a good excuse to re-look at why such a decision was
> made and whether it is actually useful in practice.

It is extremely useful to those who are used to this keyboard layout,
because it allows them to type in a familiar environment.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I wonder what can we say in the introductory text before the layout,
> to make this point clear.

Sorry, I won't make any textual suggestions.

There is a one-to-one correspondence between the standard layout and the
layout that is displayed.  The problem is that the standard layout is
displayed elsewhere.  (Do you really want me to split the window and
have standard layout on top buffer and hebrew layout on the bottom
buffer and figure out what comes first, uppercase or lowercase.)

Displaying standard layout and virtual layout together (preferably
side-by-side will help.)

----------------------------------------------------------------

ALSO, A simple example saying 'typing s gets you this' and 'typing S
gets you that will help'.

----------------------------------------------------------------

OR

You can simply do away with displaying the keyboard(s). Instead, give a
one-to-one map between the input char and the output char.

For example, see quail-help with input method set to tamil-itrans.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

You can close the bug with or without a fix.  Atleast the problem has
been noted down.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <87txfs9jqt.fsf@gmail.com>, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I don't want English at all. I don't want to mix English and Hebrew.  I
> just wnat a buffer with Hebrew and nothing else.

I use capital letters A to Z frequently in writing Japanese
text.  They are for such organization names as AIST, FSF,
IBM, NSA, etc., for such abbreviations as TV, SNS, DVD, GDP,
etc., and perhaps for the other purposes.  And, I think the
resulting text is still just Japanese, not a mixture of
English and Japanese.

Although that is a situation in Japanese writing context,
but is it different in Hebew writing context?

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@gnu.org

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Cc: 15800@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2013 09:29:11 +0530
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I wonder what can we say in the introductory text before the layout,
> > to make this point clear.
> 
> Sorry, I won't make any textual suggestions.
> 
> There is a one-to-one correspondence between the standard layout and the
> layout that is displayed.  The problem is that the standard layout is
> displayed elsewhere.  (Do you really want me to split the window and
> have standard layout on top buffer and hebrew layout on the bottom
> buffer and figure out what comes first, uppercase or lowercase.)

The "standard" word is a link, which leads you to the standard layout.

> Displaying standard layout and virtual layout together (preferably
> side-by-side will help.)

Maybe.  But it will take too much space, so it's not trivial.

> ALSO, A simple example saying 'typing s gets you this' and 'typing S
> gets you that will help'.

I added some verbiage to that effect, I hope it clarifies things.

bug#15800: 24.3.50; hebrew: describe-input-method, case sensitive or not

[Jambunathan K]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I added some verbiage to that effect, I hope it clarifies things.

Looks good to me.