From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: IDE Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:09:16 +0200 Message-ID: <87fv1d6fdf.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <83fv1r3gzp.fsf@gnu.org> <83bncf3f9k.fsf@gnu.org> <5610E0BC.8090902@online.de> <83si5r106e.fsf@gnu.org> <831td9z18h.fsf@gnu.org> <5612E996.7090700@yandex.ru> <83bnc7tavr.fsf@gnu.org> <5618C92A.3040207@yandex.ru> <83a8rrt9ag.fsf@gnu.org> <871tcyexa9.fsf@fimbulvetr.bsc.es> <87612a7my2.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <561DC925.5050001@siege-engine.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444812578 16006 80.91.229.3 (14 Oct 2015 08:49:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 08:49:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eric Ludlam Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 14 10:49:22 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZmHkO-0004kd-Pi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:49:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41186 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZmHkO-0002H2-07 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 04:49:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36088) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZmHjE-00011f-Cr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 04:48:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZmHjD-0007Sf-78 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 04:48:08 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:53807) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZmHjD-0007SX-3H; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 04:48:07 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39393 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZmHjC-00068k-H4; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 04:48:06 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C3BA7DF4ED; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:09:16 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <561DC925.5050001@siege-engine.com> (Eric Ludlam's message of "Tue, 13 Oct 2015 23:16:53 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191534 Archived-At: Eric Ludlam writes: > On 10/13/2015 12:28 PM, David Kastrup wrote: >> "John Wiegley" writes: >> >>>>>>>> Llu=EDs writes: >>> >>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: >>>> [...] >>>>>> For C/C++, the community has Irony and Rtags, both based on libclang= . If >>>>>> libclang is unacceptable for you, you probably know a more appropria= te >>>>>> mailing list to bring that up at. >>> >>>>> Let's not reiterate past discussions: you forget CEDET. >>> >>> CEDET first came out in 2003. If it were the answer to our present >>> questions, we would not be asking them. >> >> But since it did come out in 2003, we really should be asking _why_ it >> isn't the answer to our present questions, in order to avoid the effort >> of creating CEDET2 and CEDET3. > > Based on the many emails I've seen on the topic, I suspect the answer is: > > * It is hard to configure (ie - setting up project files, > include paths, or whatever.) > * Specific implementations are incomplete (ie - c++ || other parser is > imperfect, the project system doesn't implement some feature, etc) > * It is compared against better staffed tools I got rid of it because it tended to eat all my CPU repeatedly digging through buffers and files in the background. I don't want some tool to go treasure-hunting for hours in my directories without concrete cause, then restart for inscrutable reasons. It had its own idea of projects not matching the projects I was working with, and it's an absolute no-go for Emacs to meddle with project organization: I want to be able to jump in with Emacs into any project without any pre- or post-configuration. Maybe that's a decisive difference between what people got to expect from an IDE and I expect from Emacs: if someone develops stuff in Visual C++, everybody in the project is expected to use the project organization tools of the Visual C++ IDE. But I don't want my choice of Emacs as an editor bleed all over a project. Now you'll say that EDE (or Semantic, or whatever other component) is entirely optional but it's hard to figure out just what the relations of the various parts of CEDET are. If you want to just work with the code you have and not get stuff messed up, at some point of time it's easier to just forego the whole inscrutable package and simplify one's life. Again, that's a main difference to what a normal IDE is doing: it tends to focus on a small set of languages and does them well when I buy into the IDE, and I can use IDE features as needed. But my buy-in was to Emacs. I don't want to buy into a competing framework CEDET. If I want completion, I enable an option or package for it, and I don't want it to come with a host of things I have no idea how to keep from messing with my work environment. It's nice when there is some framework with which major mode writers can easily provide a lot of functionality commonly expected of IDEs. But CEDET appears to be mainly a user choice, and it leaves the user with the job of maintaining Emacs/CEDET integrity for his workflows. And it did not particularly help that seminal parts of CEDET like its parser generators were kept out of Emacs for very, very long: you needed to install a third-party CEDET in order to even be able to maintain some Emacs-internal modes. --=20 David Kastrup