From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mark Oteiza Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Friendly discussion about (package-initialize) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:14:03 -0400 Message-ID: <87fud4j9pw.fsf@holos> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1502079257 21087 195.159.176.226 (7 Aug 2017 04:14:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 04:14:17 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Radon Rosborough , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 07 06:14:12 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1deZQf-00055q-SV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 06:14:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35280 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1deZQl-0000Eu-S0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:14:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39305) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1deZQe-0000D6-V6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:14:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1deZQb-0007HP-QQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:14:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x241.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::241]:34355) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1deZQb-0007Gy-I2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:14:05 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x241.google.com with SMTP id i19so6750439qte.1 for ; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 21:14:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=udel-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=oxje5WTECg53r6z3Rv30xYp38ZU7a1+Znh/teXfhijU=; b=nVXcQV0WpOnY4AANOcsi72EwlDhBpYjzSfzddI4wsT31fkdcX1oK+YIMX/XLbAwrZg 8frHpvfXy9UsgLO4WCup2ShZydNPmDqQQ38PwpsTsTOdlXx+pVpZpX6oW4ZydN+p8zEd Iqfr0xN2ldG4cbGy3jBUL9lmApjAWNxDRdpXyghgY2y2bYlSDEnBEe3rA7pJB/K5R0HG jtOzfqD8Hmp+rXktXCSkKgE+55Ew0i7yWk0ivKewKvKXnCNNGf/BMcmMDImXeBXN/mFV 4CsnzzOG9yfkIdpcU3JzThjHNyuypTCvzRx8aE3G4+r9TjyU3zZY20ohb/Yke5MbrPsc npnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=oxje5WTECg53r6z3Rv30xYp38ZU7a1+Znh/teXfhijU=; b=gRAdZDfRHN0lLano9djySlsgkCI26sxXtGHj/vqmnOgg01n6sCKnQLojmB0yDgSyxM GgzzF+qG3uLmCcZS1hSp0dDKwdXVopwxz+GbV2WPt7sUwQGfRkDu9hCl5JBr0GkYmMjE ofJ1BHw/cGwk0WhxtEDTo6N57qzNQq5S9605RQjyf4/GZ8hH6Qt9t0XGK8EGLnmoRKnf MPoIAipGSk9VbTi8eYLSmT/g8cCh0HkyMooUO2Sdud0T1gToxf2oHl5pPT6SthCGvh+E ZGFuMg6LgPUHbjw+7JAnKEBx512y2EkC7uoXKTXkLDd0cepOBFkt3F2R/xSVwscpGLO5 ovhg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jKwHTs0GM/vMATMjlBUoFAl6DhkN2V61kDAvd6hIrjgtRu9c8P 6bfJThAqFstUroK5 X-Received: by 10.200.3.195 with SMTP id z3mr13670797qtg.185.1502079244982; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 21:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from holos.localdomain (pool-173-64-88-95.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net. [173.64.88.95]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z30sm3024847qta.84.2017.08.06.21.14.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 06 Aug 2017 21:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by holos.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7F0DE693FF; Mon, 7 Aug 2017 00:14:03 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 06 Aug 2017 21:39:41 -0400") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::241 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217354 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >> Sure, I think it's reasonable for Emacs to provide special support for >> packages which are built in. But there's such a thing as going too >> far. And I personally think that you've gone too far in providing >> special support when that support actively makes it *more* difficult >> to swap out an alternative implementation. > > You wrote lots and lots of lines of text just to complain about the > addition of a single "(package-initialize)" Not every user of package.el needs (package-initialize) in their init file. Not every user needs it at the beginning of the file, either. > This said, the main motivation for calling package--ensure-init-file > from package-initialize was to fix existing user's config where they had > packages installed yet their .emacs didn't call package-initialize, so > they had trouble configuring their packages. One might argue that this > situation is now mostly fixed and we could change tactic: only call > package--ensure-init-file when the user installs a package. The existing behaviour: - subverts `package-load-list' settings - breaks setting of package-archives that would normally happen before calling `package-initialize' - writes init.el twice for some reason? - does nothing to solve the disparity between packages and customize, which is the topic that opened the can of worms in the first place - is basically undocumented I can think of one other instance of a fragile init file lisp parser in Emacs, and that one only exists for political reasons.