From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why fido, icycles, ido, icomplete Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:27:48 +0000 Message-ID: <87ftj04jjv.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s.ref@Ergus> <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s@Ergus> <877e4c1x3r.fsf@gmail.com> <20191106232153.bb756hrf4ctwegkp@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="261473"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 07 01:28:04 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVed-0015uW-M0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 01:28:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37998 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVec-0007BY-3n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:28:02 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55902) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVeV-0007BS-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:27:56 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVeT-0005nf-Pi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:27:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::432]:33319) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVeT-0005n9-Jr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:27:53 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id w30so931903wra.0 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:27:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zr9Tb+5Po0WHZnYLuic4g5b2BasNPIyeV9mrgbUH5IY=; b=G7DwOptKHnliVHuCynBf+SwXH5iehm4Kt6VQSKgrJHjj4JJS26RvHmYZVK15zo+xlJ j+dzkg91PumsWyhhB8NXiY6vVH24GE5hdkE0EstJKwoVQFATiIS8SvaDwjtUCkpSdG9F /aM/GQaYAkPUmXkJ4VRcxVlb+RsfCpOuPAJRIYqauRVRK1IyPUSyis5ol63wWMNMt5Xl 1M2BYDFZ29DqczhmApFyt65nRl96EplWUBYa4MGlbKYTul/G7qgrggO4rNrMAJzAj0v7 OhiZ/XzzbAjBsJN2i0XU4VB0dea9fWNikfqEblCE3CoP1WTF/qWMcT5IKLyVyQSH2EW0 aERw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zr9Tb+5Po0WHZnYLuic4g5b2BasNPIyeV9mrgbUH5IY=; b=HILtKAG7v4TjlrA14pFIH/6d5syyiwGNbsDP9FvlsyhYAVX45lqsA47uzaYMeHkFhy HXnm1KwylXWYOsAs5gXDritWacm+5MEQm8q5as1pRjPpGOgdpB2RQ4OEO4suhIfSzThm 8OvIo91aFH+57N4kSijx0wEuxWpgWYQX3OaoY1GVsXFUkbhzZ6lYwFm3Q6XhtCuoLY+i qhs2pkCWAYIRNbTw+Z178GPos4fYJ43C7eLyFa9rKHs2xDk5zbxPfFZv43NuUDahTHo9 98JVjo4GQsafWUojGAjNKs3z89mVjxr+/36ZQYs6qjLa+QQBzwN5JOzdtgIoxi9uD8yN nbrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUpyMtMa/EOjog1r+ZJdWxBV1zbKPDqr/GDgqxEW7z2/bf88S2/ Wkno1WrHfwLrdStqwF2wegFC3Cxf X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwj9yuMr710L1MNkIQl190dpSXgHE6KejmiHOvUtym0jXE96uCm4i5EOvD35jT+JICtAiLhiw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:dc81:: with SMTP id r1mr308504wrj.84.1573086471802; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:27:51 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from lolita.yourcompany.com ([2001:818:d820:9500:1ebb:afd8:ab26:f0f6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b186sm219556wmb.21.2019.11.06.16.27.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 16:27:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20191106232153.bb756hrf4ctwegkp@Ergus> (Ergus's message of "Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:21:53 +0100") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::432 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:241893 Archived-At: Ergus writes: > Thanks for the answer it is very clarifying for me now. Maybe you should > add all this information somewhere in the documentation. *all* this informatino is a bit much, don't you think, but there is already documentation. > I actually have very strong feelings behind ido in 2019 (I know I am a > sort of apostate for this). But I think it is something that needs to be > removed/deprecated/substituted for the good of newer alternatives like The idea of fido-mode is indeed to obsolete ido mode. But it's still a bit far away. And removing is yet another matter: i don't think there's any harm in having ido. Of course, if fido-mode ever becomes a perfect superset of ido, and removing it proves mostly harmless, OK I guess. > The intention is to move the users to the newer functionalities so they > can get the best possible first impression. I agree with this. But I don't agree with the "newer" =3D "best possible". These things take time to settle and one of the strong points of Emacs is, paradoxically, its resistance to change. Its like a movie theater where there are only classics playing. Lots of grainy footage but all movies are superb. > I think Abo-abo actually tried to modify ido to improve it and he > finally ended implementing ivy... was easier that way. And I found icomplete.el, which is already in Emacs. > I will pray you to do the same for ivy... please please... Well, I did very little. The author did all the work. I and Stefan helped (mostly Stefan in the last part). The evolution is registered here https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm/issues/2165. You can point Ivy's author to this thread. > think ivy is now much better integrated than helm before, but for sure > there will be things missing you could help to improve. >>still annoyingly (and legitimately) there, and we can't just change >>icomplete-mode's defaults like that. >> > I have never used icomplete... so I don't know what ido provides that > icomplete can't. So where is the gap? Is a part of the gap fixed in helm > or ivy for example? You are miscommunicating: the "gap" is whatever doesn't quite work in icomplete-mode to make it work just like ido-mode. It's the behaviour of RET, C-k, C-d and some other things. > Maybe this paragraph should go in the manual in the ido section > suggesting to switch to fido in order to improve fido as much as > possible and deprecate the actual ido implementation in the future... (I > have a dream, please don't burn me for this "A man can dream... a man > can dream") There's already a paragraph in the manual. An alternative to Icomplete mode is Fido mode. This is very similar to Icomplete mode, but retains some functionality from a popular extension called Ido mode (in fact the name is derived from =E2=80=9CFa= ke Ido=E2=80=9D). Among other things, in Fido mode, =E2=80=98C-s=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98C-= r=E2=80=99 are also used to rotate the completions list, =E2=80=98C-k=E2=80=99 can be used to delet= e files and kill buffers in-list. Another noteworthy aspect is that =E2=80=98flex=E2=80= =99 is used as the default completion style (*note Completion Styles::). =E2=80=98 To enable Fido mode, type =E2=80=98M-x fido-mode=E2=80=99, or custom= ize the variable fido-mode=E2=80=99 to =E2=80=98t=E2=80=99 (*note Easy Customization::). I also put something in NEWS. You (or anyone else) can propose changes it, if you want. I put it in the icomplete section because it's really very closely related to icomplete-mode. Maybe I could add a reference to the ido-mode manual (just discovered it exists). Don't know how to do inter-manual references, though, this one is emacs/buffers.texi the other is misc/ido.texi. Jo=C3=A3o