From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Android port of Emacs Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2023 08:11:15 +0800 Message-ID: <87fs6reyn0.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <83v8fnslfz.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25455"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 17 02:12:25 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qAJYG-0006Up-HO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Jun 2023 02:12:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAJXR-00079H-Lb; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 20:11:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAJXP-00078p-QR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 20:11:31 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic316-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.147]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qAJXN-000508-KE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jun 2023 20:11:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1686960686; bh=AnlrdWS800Ay86/X9eUOCIxB6pBow0uLOkstk3pcb3M=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=pvsZCPinvrGFG5J9rvMm9lUakroIaUkn4DVS9x1Y/kFAEe54THpVpMSqG2JTSsPW2wTutU+/KrJ3Z0aPbrF+3IQw5KcwJUlhrUVr0L0AL44A3x/I4nqpGrWNNkBNQxgaLUQFd3RQLMtaLieL2KD2nN6Zfy4yJCiK9jjdezKxXpfEzrfCj0DzJX80fRKtuGo4TI8nd6aRmRFvqMzTB75yHs+3G7BnUR+uG/nRjJfOiFYJowgpLeVV2drjHSEJlSNKN0nK/j4BsB5ikEZhfGTgt1KasFFYF2hHXVLy4a03fe0lKrW0CjRUgyGkUNrfvKt7RxN+rmP50rovR+JF/K89fQ== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1686960686; bh=hNld81k4U02WvE+/mdkcAoMgc1bPig6uM2klrc4tSGI=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=Ya1PYN+BXR/RavPLU48CoD37OiXUc+hZ7TOdzki56TSJLOsZOcq9xQj5d9Httc128G7p9XrSD4Cb8DCkq7bQzpKa2F+Qs0UjbB+2UFbqfFxhocnunx827u9yxNJ7s4ivUbIpcxu0vMUYgyGAK8nuoVqghv/Q4ZnE5zpLPHh6xHKa/0gyQV0PgJC2riM9FkUkmu3vMKVSlPUnio3tGG33EpSIgL0EPw4pNM+wU9i7PumRm3y9G8yqHqBkOKHsCuYFcJ0aWqQ/4G+V8zZeSBuNw8s13p4n+oWRrwtHVmJUtR0xzjR5YhsFZyLVY3vXFvT1jB5NIiti3s6j761our8gPQ== X-YMail-OSG: nXybLZ4VM1kbz6HjrsPhZ4lgtbMtZ7_90uQouX0qjW1RtnwppnIPHgWd9e4uZX3 qoEoVXGtBUlat1uDfaqXA633wKwHXP59Vg.__ol0tOGza3QmnAIRGNlfA9LWIuhC_a.q0JJ2lCO7 E4djeBPamGPP02xYDp_s6W2BypEEkY2nwMioxIkiiOqbrZ6HRy6IcvSJD4gxewTN7IvCKkMn76jA PNmScGcINScctEgbjZDnRNiDfx0VVH0fLpU1svU42ZDkR22Eta9Hifwr0m65eds7YykQ2cVxjuyH ybEmyFNcnYltibejeZXL8IiotbOBPbYOpcpaiOS6Rt7xLNz_hPqQbbnO2wgB.ySSHkJ76Fckvcia q3U1lSHt0IZS71JE9DxhNuu3dsgbyXstWmi2y5Or6oV.m8ZZ88i2yCYdh9Hm_L0EG0rNOWFJDTVu t3.2tNXJQ5lcURKg1e3nc9LqUHTW6I1EHg.dnaaT5rlzgrcs9iE6LT1ng6Vcbxxpu2osgWiRPGt1 d2iZynN7BFKbK8OW8fFPqdepy2eNW35zB3OdKFtMW5zLj.yojrlzqkGmCCwG10nVjooHZm1vLVTq sCwFCVJYDDgcbtQegR_iNbFkOCTCFNBwxq.2aTA_spzQr7aynVgq7Te.smeuyo7xsWyB3vql9tjF 1hIX187U2kQLIuQMrX7rFuNBF2nROlsa3L736I6xE4jUTXASKBsXg0uTBcgvXcDiKOaTJjrsOd4v WLoZLwiqwm151_X1ROC7i.RgPcZFXtOU7IxXaOH29R3NNn2.jxUbhStew9cdhdCvLGtW1a9yE5Hr 5ILnmU0ggUzkQRQEGjv00rxcV0g7toYymOi_NqQM4b X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 9cf97cdd-f1be-4a00-b340-1a9d5ce06d92 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Jun 2023 00:11:26 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-748897c457-ncjl6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 7fb3c87ccc52e2e395b3dcdfef78e51a; Sat, 17 Jun 2023 00:11:19 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (chad's message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:19:05 -0400") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21557 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.187.147; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic316-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306843 Archived-At: chad writes: > We've seen a couple positions put forward that I will paraphrase as "I > personally see strong potential in Emacs for Android, although I > don't/wouldn't really use it right away." As near as I can tell, these > positions are tangential to Eli's point which I will summarize as "The > Android port is great, and we should probably give it _some_ support, > but maybe that level is lower than everything expressed and implied by > incorporating it directly into the mainline emacs repository?" Incorporating code in Emacs doesn't mean that we are obligated to support it or keep it working, it means that we will keep it working to the extent that interested users provide changes to do so. i.e. the DOS port was broken between 27.1 and 28.2, but that wasn't an obstacle to keeping the code around. Someone eventually fixed it. > I am personally sympathetic to both views, and (at the risk of > forking/hijacking the thread a bit), I would even go so far as to say > that Emacs as a project might benefit from spinning out at least the > Android port (which is new and very maintained, but has a very high > bus factor) and also the NS port (which is not new, shows some > downsides of high bus-factor parts, and has at least one > well-maintained alternative outside the mainline Emacs repo: the mac > port). The Mac port (Carbon Emacs) being spun off was the result of its maintainer refusing to maintain it for Emacs 23, then refusing to co-operate with other Emacs developers who tried to adapt it to multi-tty, and finally realizing that its replacement, the NS port, was severely inadequate, and backtracking on the angry decision to abandon it. That's not an attitude we want to encourage for future Emacs development. > As a technical matter, it seems like it's probably easier to maintain > some abstraction barriers along OS and window-system code by virtue of > having a single repo that supports 3-5 "variants", but in practice > that _seems_ to have mostly resulted in treating a quite old > "posix-y-unix with X11" as the baseline, and then adapting everything > to that. This seems (again, I'm not an expert here) to have caused > some continuing pain with respect to GTK and the pgtk port > (particularly in the very high incidence of people using pgtk in > wayland+X environments where it's not supported, kinda works, and > breaks in not-so-rare corner cases). The GNU project porting policy is to make other operating systems (MS Windows, VMS, MVS, etc) look like Unix. And the reason X is treated as the canonical window system is that X is a superset of every other window system: it provides all their features, and then some more. Problems with PGTK stem from the negligence of the GTK developers and nothing else. > Taking the NS port as an example, if the mainline were to drop support > for the ns port, this would nudge some macOS users over to the mac > port, strand some users of quite old macOS versions, and isolate the > users of the GNUStep port. My belief is that the mac port is already > quite popular, the people stuck on old mac OS X versions are already > stuck with library and compiler version issues, and the GNUStep port > has very Those are not issues. Emacs supports Clang 3.x and GCC 4.5.x (along with period C libraries) just fine. > little actual usage (I wouldn't be surprised to learn that "testing > GNUStep support" is the single largest user-base of GNUStep" at this > point.) Perhaps, but then we did get one bug report from an actual user recently.