From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 16:51:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5uw9ivs.fsf@posteo.net> <87ttt42gna.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87wmy080kn.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8djcydl.fsf@gnu.org> <87350ndquw.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83350ncbns.fsf@gnu.org> <87cyzrjbd8.fsf@dfreeman.email> <83zg2vav46.fsf@gnu.org> <87o7j99304.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87zg2hsyrd.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87h6ontwfv.fsf@posteo.net> <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23489"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Dmitry Gutov , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Danny Freeman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 01 17:49:21 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6Of-0005uu-O4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 17:49:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6OD-0007Mn-V5; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:48:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6OC-0007MP-SE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:48:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qc6O9-0006de-QS; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 11:48:52 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-31c5a2e8501so1767747f8f.0; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 08:48:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693583327; x=1694188127; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=xPDDwLM8QgMWVC3Pz1KM+w4HRZYtvby5YpochYgDnD4=; b=Hty3m3+/+DN5SmmCNH6orwZ/c02Kw783VssaiIuPnSQ6mnd7VIMX+V0x5ahITXzDvc sIcu47MoO6Tj3U/w0jzHdjL5TP6dNnt9VxWaSf9RtPjtrprH0PREr86GYnI8XSw0vLqS 0NJS7B/C5CGTGbbB9RGuHP7SoTWqxtzmqI0XFhqOMPqevRhwIt8hz8IdUUfATHFcU4Cr St1Qzvo+VjSSrQjNZHCOyG//L2gsStJmAVRxM9eatfNLdbmiMZo/jOVYqn+unUMGn9ja QNefsIHF2V2K+VFENK3S7Cvs2XiIMp6xQTvfKjHVYe7WlkBpKCfbEsga+KnBqfEtRH/U 5psw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693583327; x=1694188127; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=xPDDwLM8QgMWVC3Pz1KM+w4HRZYtvby5YpochYgDnD4=; b=RfoqCGSkdLEzLrMVawl4DEID4XC+rbmz2S6bREuZ6n+L7BHYiEq+VRqpSzPV/WyMDD Tx95beGG+QIO4PZUvkELTfGR/c19IFGP63XOv8eR+NSSEqmU4Cw0Nvc8tp1zxlRWAggx o46NEXmRpQen65gK/IqMLTQiQhd+wwckojKmUKyygi6i5YpRuzri+Q2VVm/PqR376UmW OX8+G9O3Hey87bfYKHgJg7tN6SPgahA4yjejIbPW80hupS7dmTuhhVbj6FjF64hC2A0Z Zc9bhJbas14sQwF03Dn8bxgrySJPcoxqp0zcwV1vmq1XD6DxArQ2dtKcQZrQefsdD8PC m1MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyhzyeshbAg9i87EIhIX+/O225dwTs8zWlYMBEDbvaLvPcboO6Y PTlounK6MaOzdHzdRMkPwWPilx6cJ5kFhA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IElWD+IcEOfCc15g4S+wf8NtaUU4Nc7AL0rsiuQ0JK3U1WPoUTbocx3RBH1MmSw7UhUMo5f6g== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e252:0:b0:30f:bb83:e6f4 with SMTP id bl18-20020adfe252000000b0030fbb83e6f4mr2266849wrb.0.1693583326749; Fri, 01 Sep 2023 08:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from krug (a95-92-228-31.cpe.netcabo.pt. [95.92.228.31]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k33-20020a05600c1ca100b0040210a27e29sm5426336wms.32.2023.09.01.08.48.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 01 Sep 2023 08:48:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> (Danny Freeman's message of "Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:05:45 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42f; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309814 Archived-At: Danny Freeman writes: > With that in mind, I won't stand in the way of a new clojure editing > mode for Emacs, in fact I suggested enabling lisp mode for clojure files > somewhere else in this thread. However, I will advocate for not > hijacking the name clojure-mode that has been in active use for 15 > years. > > There are a lot of users of clojure-mode, and there is no telling how a > builtin mode with the same name might break people's configurations and > workflows. Not to mention what it would do to the various packages that > (require 'clojure-mode), which those same developers use to get their > work done. I think there is still a fair amount of exaggerated alarm over the simple issue of Emacs providing a major mode for Clojure in some future version. Emacs traditionally provides major modes for every major programming language. There is no shred of evidence of any inclination of the Emacs project to sow chaos in the workflows of Clojure programmers just for the heck of it. Of course the naming issue is real, but deciding on it is one of the very last things to address on and it depends on what the new mode would be able to do. So don't put the bulls in front of the carriage. Not to mention there is lots of prior-art for technical means to manage clashing names. Not only in Emacs, but most everywhere. For example: if I ask my system package manager to install "java" I get a number of possibilities. None of these options is more "java" than the other. I get to choose which one is fits my needs better. Symlinks to executables and libraries get setup appropriately, etc. So, there is no "hijacking" at stake because there isn't (or at least there shouldn't be) the concept of property or ownership of a name, especially something as generic as "Clojure mode". Plus, what matters to Clojure programmers generally isn't the really the NonGNU provenance of their daily working tools. If anything, I've seen evidence of the contrary, witnessing some users switch to Emacs's core facilities even if they are _less_ featureful than third-party alternatives, _precisely_ because they trust the Emacs project's stability and longevity. I've seen this with Flymake and most recently with Eglot. What _really_ matters to users is what they can do with their Clojure tools. With that in mind, and since you sincerely state you want to move this discussion in a productive direction, what are -- in your opinion -- the 5 most important features supported by the the NonGNU Clojure mode and the brand new NonGNU Clojure TreeSitter mode? As a Clojure programmer, do you personally use LSP? What are the LSP and nonLSP commands you find yourself invoking most often. Can you say if CIDER is prepared to work with major modes other than the NonGNU Clojure mode? Thanks, Jo=C3=A3o