From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 22:48:24 +0800 Message-ID: <87frszwyiv.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <746FE961-37C5-4387-8274-7D90908EE2D6@dancol.org> <8734p3219c.fsf@yahoo.com> <867cefeo1w.fsf@gnu.org> <8734p03e94.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <867cec9ccl.fsf@gnu.org> <87v81vx12n.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9207"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Jeremy Bryant , acm@muc.de, stefankangas@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 26 16:49:37 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTxp-00026Q-Bq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 16:49:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTx7-0007LJ-9r; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:48:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTx1-0007KI-CL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:48:47 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic310-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.205]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sMTwy-0004qP-PO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:48:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719413322; bh=ZCUTqlzPpi9GOmOjAo9+a3R+g2gYSLc375wg1ZQr0aU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=YrwIzq8mCFL1enZlihE8xraQEXKBhA7vTZmMHaemNGNndpPptiDKagVUG3ZvB0yFrNFiNKCwReR/fJZC/5Sm0D4PmpnhdH6rv/5BBaNab+V2EwuZGyw1e+3bKCgDaAYcVhlPkgxjlTNeUh3g65CD4axpvbD5t4zcCky3fgXmZoOQ6+Zn+4Xfk8q/7X4DBEwM14Hc0qclUpR+2lXQa22hvHAcjcUyhrOd7uZ2cfgAxWO63wrMN6QHSRfNbQywKCnHBrNXYzMX7bgrZSeorxOMBHylRoceNoFH5J6kqOePIXakK6JlTb5YKoHKYzwqUxTt8Z6y+J13Wx0GzcM8HQY1Cw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719413322; bh=W+munT+IkGYqgFjYcLVhq0tH5+/SEdUegBgKqfIlyTL=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=E6NqJC0lc2S89aOfW5edOTr/29fVdkFARdsz07O4uPHd/oePMUzSUyVmI9DU+7i1XoowOukoK4XNzLnRTtPVMlKBV2BfUA3O8o3enTr9l6q9HYp3nJWdAGqVH8TOhc0fY517i58sV5f1LqNur1AalYXk44JD1W9BMHjak3oq53072Zfh8ipjHtWOSuawefH0xFiHokFlifyQBL6BexzPhhEppXBqzJjZFRI1n3LOSSGGewd9NMYEoUcLthk4nhoeCWApo40VPicC6v7teaZckSTehLnWjda9pSiKDa7E5znAX57wbFZZQOIDseT+ULi83IuzYLy064khPOIRQ6ncrA== X-YMail-OSG: 4QC_tkIVM1mMRmcBTdmIRQuj6BDotbY3I8A8XxdM5L11y_RF04xnnq69Wj0Jcch JMo9KvOxOmIpS8ty5Ekuty2Atg6_dRcUGPBWwoD0rcAjLldoV54ipRQ2OXoc7tMfmk8Pnh.XcfNx VKzehSOueU3IYNc1DjZ2PR13eyIuaV8.bC7fYp4_kO9hOHIiXwo6o.u1xy5Ai_W3T.10zK.PIOus 9U492kuo2CrBIwY9T66lJflkU_tP6zepGpBEHm0g6NXLPdJW57uhe_uMOsBtHCsxCiHBbp_Laz8F 3XmvjMp5brTZ8nOVyM97WBYeTgH0ba2A2DCYfWcXNQbEWwk_r1D9kshlc7EfxHNfqmOPo2Xek0N5 bC.p439YOfYQyJGbj3PCWW_1RxVeILEM.no19ovFXWDDwgnteXErEJO_kCa54hRQbHxUPLAjH7Xm ZobERkPK1sWMJsXlnYVM4bzD0eIY18kn9klomd3CWWLw2lko4Zq05M3DyOC1nFtQYcXm66BvSx58 RVIQTMshFI62lQeK9obGYnIZly_Y_t4O4GhUeXuC_rmxoUqb3xoQFWHf5TenOgOIeEfEEMI7.Ri0 J2p.6lmqT5znjrk1XlynBMnTJPIoVqG8.xSYJOJ8R9KiGHjXsY0n98dI9iZvbhw2SSI8qwgKz60J d4uxyT..hp92HPMlshsUwbw7LO.S9zUtKDI_ZRdwR0hV6uqGqVEHwpHNEqCnOoeln72cMYfK9oN8 pyBzu8xXv5YI9PQaIri2nEmmvrbWr7rNGewiEIVpqe_APTbbetVz9rKXUetUpJgcueGX4zLGgLAh s57.OqYKT3lqkjo3LIXSVcPyyFop.uKyyMKXa1Djxh X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 9e5209ce-8c20-450b-80d8-f5a414d8d0a6 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:48:42 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-7b469d9f6-2cjcg (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0bc40e6d81f1d1b2596bb58912806e7a; Wed, 26 Jun 2024 14:48:36 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Daniel Colascione's message of "Wed, 26 Jun 2024 10:18:17 -0400") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.186.205; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic310-24.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320705 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: > You're overthinking this. C-x 4 is for stuff relating to windows. Of > course that's the right place to put window movement commands. There's > no other logical place. Who said so? I see nothing to this effect in ctl-x-4-map or its (vanishingly scant) documentation, which map is composed entirely of commands answering to the description I gave. > You can choose to make that binding. I don't think it's a good > default. Adding a reasonable default does not hurt you. It does. I explained how it does, and you declined to acknowledge my explanation, or, if you disagreed, openly state your grounds for disagreement. > Ffap is a fringe feature. Window movement is fundamental to the whole > system. A fringe feature with a VC history thrice as large as windmove's, and 1.5x as many mentions in help-gnu-emacs. Window movement is a fundamental requirement that is perfectly satisfied by other-window and mouse commands, and the paucity of windmove users speaks for itself, when they are fewer than those of such a "fringe feature" as ffap. > Again, you're making a general argument against adding any new > bindings whatsoever. I don't think that's a good thing. The very > same argument would have applied to the vc and project default > bindings. It is a general argument to be _circumspect_ in introducing new keybindings. The question of relevance is, Whether a proposed binding is of sufficient importance or located in a sufficiently discreet position to nullify the disadvantages cited in the argument. Windmove is not, nor are the proposed keybindings. > So now we're going from keybindings to sociology? K. What I see is that I argue in good faith and you respond by quibbling sardonically. Hardly a shining example of good software development practice. >>they decide, so that the obligation of exercising this privilege wisely >>and sparingly devolves on _ourselves_, who should constantly be at pains >>to earn and deserve this respect. With all due respect, you are just >>one user, and though many have concurred with your choice, yet none of ------------------------------------ ------- >>them have previously created the same set of bindings as yours. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes they have. Check the thread. In fact, it was Stefan who > resurrected the thread in the first place. Nowhere has Stefan M mentioned which bindings he personally uses for Windmove. > You are, in fact, though ,making a general argument, then suggesting > it applies only to this one matter. You are, rather, dealing in absolutes. I am not responsible for your failing to understand that, when, where, and how one set of disadvantages might be outweighed by a corresponding set of advantages. > That's called "special pleading" and is a structurally invalid kind of > discourse. Special pleading is claiming an unsubstantiated exception to a general rule. This, by contrast, is the application of a general rule to a specific issue to which it is material. > I think Doom Emacs and Spacemacs are in bounds. They exist because > core Emacs has been insufficiently responsive to needs of real world > users, and this thread is this problem in microcosm. More oratory. > There is a difference between changing an existing binding (e.g. C-z) > and installing a new binding where none currently exists. Merging the > two scenarios doesn't lead the conversation in a good place. It is rather the users who are affected by this distinction than ourselves. But you are conflating the scenario where the user creates a binding in an unoccupied location with that where we do so, after which, and for the users, that location is removed from the scope of the former.