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From: Thierry Volpiatto <thierry.volpiatto@gmail.com>
To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Andreas Schwab' <schwab@linux-m68k.org>,
	'Mathias Dahl' <mathias.dahl@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Unuseful keybindings
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:32:23 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87ehimeemg.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5D7D686F0451473081716BAAE7264CC6@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 18 Dec 2012 16:27:46 -0800")

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> Can't you just rebind these keys? I mean, you would
>> have to do that anyway, to use them for your purposes, right?
>
> Yes, but the fact that users can do that is never a good enough reason _on its
> own_ for Emacs Dev to sacrifice a particular key sequence for a default binding.
>
> For one thing, the very fact that there exists a default key binding sometimes
> dissuades libraries from binding the key sequence, because some user will holler
> bloody hell that the library steps on a default key binding, even if using the
> library is a voluntary act, and even if the user can override the library
> binding.
>
> No, there is nothing wrong with a user or a library doing that, but some people
> overly respect what they see as the established order, even though Emacs points
> out in its doc that you are free to customize etc.  Somehow, default key
> bindings can tend, for some people, to take on a sacred aura.
>
> An additional rationale was given in this case, however, I believe.  IIRC
> (excuse me if I remember incorrectly), this was it: many people use it outside
> Emacs for the same (or a similar) thing.
>
> I find that particular rationale quite weak, if it stands alone.  Yes, it has
> _some_ merit, but there can be much stronger, internal-consistency or
> user-behavior reasons for Emacs to bind a given key sequence by default.
>
> For one thing, a key such as `f11' is repeatable, so it is preferable not to
> waste it on a command/action that is not repeatable by just holding down the
> key.  Most possible key sequences (e.g. `C-x r l') are not repeatable, and we
> should make best use of those that are.  Repeatable keys are a scarce resource,
> to be treasured and put to wise use.
>
> We first went down this silly path when we bound `f3' and `f4' - not too long
> ago.  That was a big mistake, IMHO.  Or was `f10' prior?
>
> Well, you could even argue that the first such abuse was binding `f1', but there
> are a lot more people who know and use `f1' for help outside Emacs than there
> are that use `f11'.  Plus, `f1' is precisely for getting help.  There is a much
> stronger case to be made for sacrificing `f1' than `f3', `f4', `f10', or `f11',
> IMO.
>
> It used to be that Emacs made an effort to stay away from binding function keys.
> Alas, that boat sailed long ago.

1+

-- 
  Thierry
Get my Gnupg key:
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 59F29997 



  reply	other threads:[~2012-12-19  6:32 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2012-12-18 13:00 Unuseful keybindings Thierry Volpiatto
2012-12-18 13:36 ` Andreas Schwab
2012-12-18 14:48   ` Thierry Volpiatto
2012-12-18 16:58     ` Sam Steingold
2012-12-18 19:30     ` Mathias Dahl
2012-12-18 19:37       ` Thierry Volpiatto
2012-12-22  3:22         ` Chong Yidong
2012-12-22  4:39           ` Drew Adams
2012-12-22  5:09             ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-22 21:24             ` Sebastien Vauban
2012-12-22 21:48               ` Dmitry Gutov
2012-12-22 22:46                 ` Drew Adams
2012-12-22 23:32                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2012-12-23  0:45                     ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23  1:07                       ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-23  1:19                         ` Daniel Colascione
2012-12-23  1:54                           ` advertizing keyboard macros better [was: Unuseful keybindings] Drew Adams
2012-12-23  2:10                             ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-23  9:29                       ` Unuseful keybindings Juri Linkov
2012-12-23 16:55                         ` Drew Adams
2012-12-26 14:32                           ` Kevin Rodgers
2012-12-26 22:21                             ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-27  3:42                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-12-23 14:41                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2012-12-23 14:57                         ` Jambunathan K
2012-12-23 16:52                           ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23 17:47                             ` Jambunathan K
2012-12-23 18:44                               ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23 19:36                                 ` Jambunathan K
2012-12-23 20:25                                 ` Jambunathan K
2012-12-23 21:04                                   ` Drew Adams
2012-12-24  9:35                                   ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-24 13:02                                     ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-24 14:13                                       ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23 17:03                         ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23 17:33                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2012-12-23 18:51                             ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23 20:53                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2012-12-23 21:13                               ` Drew Adams
2012-12-24 21:43                                 ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23 21:25                               ` Andreas Schwab
2012-12-24  9:39                               ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-23 17:58                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-12-23 18:42                             ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23  0:19                   ` Mathias Dahl
2012-12-23  0:55                     ` Drew Adams
2012-12-23  9:32                 ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-23 10:37                   ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-23 10:56                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2012-12-23 11:22                       ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-22 22:28               ` Drew Adams
2012-12-22  7:42           ` Thierry Volpiatto
2012-12-22  8:23           ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-23  9:31             ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-24 10:29               ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-24 17:10                 ` Juri Linkov
2012-12-29  5:57                   ` Chong Yidong
2013-01-10 19:17                     ` Sam Steingold
2013-01-10 19:13                 ` Sam Steingold
2013-01-10 22:38                   ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-01-11  0:31                   ` Juri Linkov
2013-01-11  1:17                     ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-11  9:58                       ` Juri Linkov
2013-01-11 14:42                         ` Stefan Monnier
2013-01-11 18:26                         ` chad
2013-01-12  0:50                           ` Juri Linkov
2013-01-12 10:03                             ` Jan Djärv
2013-01-13 10:19                               ` Juri Linkov
2013-01-13 11:19                                 ` Jan Djärv
2012-12-19  0:27       ` Drew Adams
2012-12-19  6:32         ` Thierry Volpiatto [this message]
2012-12-19 16:43         ` Leo
2012-12-18 13:40 ` Xue Fuqiao
2012-12-18 17:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-12-18 17:49   ` Thierry Volpiatto
2012-12-18 19:10     ` Eli Zaretskii

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