From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: More metaproblem Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:52:48 -0600 Message-ID: <87egse56hb.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> References: <20141203142859.24393.98673@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <20141203192721.GE12748@thyrsus.com> <547F6774.50700@cs.ucla.edu> <838uio5vjw.fsf@gnu.org> <20141203211447.GB15111@thyrsus.com> <871toge5zw.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <83388v6hsq.fsf@gnu.org> <87egsftgd5.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <83egsf3yci.fsf@gnu.org> <87iohq6nvn.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <83mw722eit.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417801995 18650 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 17:53:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 17:53:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 18:53:08 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwx3y-0008Og-PM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 18:53:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51717 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwx3y-000713-GV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:53:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42753) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwx3q-00070y-GN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:53:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwx3l-0007BK-1Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:52:58 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]:37107) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwx3k-0007BG-SZ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:52:52 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id hn15so1193547igb.7 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:52:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=qJmrt4sNmk+2tYffGAyzRENu4tnV9FqfCHa0AQifGDs=; b=VvWw0e+AwwCsEUpmylyUZBY1FWtDZ+Zv2acjlWDG1XJDgzsoLM3FWB7xuwyDeSG+ob Tpyu61jIVKvGRPgQDx8hsgJKe0R1AKU6U7v8xVMdtLNfRgN2w1tPINVcqdaYozEmVePm hlc7LkiNPEYgHCcvqlfaPQLQqImQCcixAqYoDHfRgMvcktAVZJbZ0phBXTAMA/eGZJ7y Vn5yxyD4Y1xRaDosjXtQ1OE0w5POM2ymsSO/24CkuhI2ZFZA8A7QttN9m4vDN7SRDGeN Cqudz0WVuAWyJ0yxoj3XT08p4g/C02ZaabWUAAzDFRae/+WAo8Nlb8u2O5aEKI+OYYsU GUCw== X-Received: by 10.107.130.197 with SMTP id m66mr16398257ioi.10.1417801972179; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:52:52 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from ktab.red-bean.com (74-92-190-113-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [74.92.190.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id la3sm1140229igb.0.2014.12.05.09.52.49 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Dec 2014 09:52:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83mw722eit.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:27:22 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178964 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> So I'd love to see that barrier go away, just to see what would happen. > >That barrier doesn't exist! You are imagining it. The barrier to the bug tracker change is well-documented on this list; you're probably seen those conversations. Explicit proposals to move off debbugs have been made and have been equally explicitly shot down on the grounds that debbugs is easier for senior maintainers who are already familiar with it. I'm very glad to hear you aren't one of those, though. The barrier to the documentation change is when people see senior devs pointing to etc/CONTRIBUTE as a fine place for dev documentation and think "Oh, so the project thinks that's okay? They point to that as a solution, rather than as a problem? I guess I'm in the wrong place." Perhaps I shouldn't have characterized that as "resistance"; it's more "active promotion of a sub-optimal thing as though it were perfectly fine, with implied demotion of better things that could replace it". I agree that's only an inference -- albeit one that many observers are likely to make, even if inaccurate. But if as you're saying the inference is inaccurate, and that you're fine with the kinds of changes I described, that's great. Thanks. -K