From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric S Fraga Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:26:29 +0100 Organization: CPSE, Department of Chemical Engineering, University College London (UCL) Message-ID: <87eg7f13re.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467275300 3712 80.91.229.3 (30 Jun 2016 08:28:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:28:20 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 30 10:28:12 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bIXKN-0003Ii-OW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:28:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47729 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bIXKM-0007cM-SC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 04:28:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bIXJL-0007Zl-7X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 04:27:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bIXJH-0001sS-1i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 04:26:58 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:56954) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bIXJG-0001sF-Nm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 04:26:54 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bIXJ8-0002Om-0e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:26:46 +0200 Original-Received: from genkt-056-003.t-mobile.co.uk ([149.254.56.3]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:26:45 +0200 Original-Received: from e.fraga by genkt-056-003.t-mobile.co.uk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:26:45 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 83 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: genkt-056-003.t-mobile.co.uk X-Url: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucecesf/ User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:j0xIoZpRj4ZBJW+QdXjqcaNqpxo= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204977 Archived-At: On Wednesday, 29 Jun 2016 at 10:34, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Because the various subfeatures of Org mode were designed inside Org mode, > they turn Org mode into a separate editor within Emacs. > > > Indeed. Pragmatic approach. It may be lacking in design, although much > > has been rewritten over the years, more recently by Nicolas, but it > > works and works very well. > > It must be good to use, to have so many users. But that's a different > issue. These submodes should be designed so that they individually > fit into Emacs. I think there is some basic misunderstanding here. One way to look at org mode is as an enhanced text-mode. The enhancements are that org will look for special markup in the text to provide extra capabilities. If there is no markup, it is essentially text mode and does not get in the way. The advantage is that if you start using some of the markup, akin to outline-mode, you can start making use of the rather extensive features. But you don't have to. For the features above and beyond text mode, you can start slowly, e.g. just using it as an outliner that works much better than outline mode. You can then start adding project management aspects, if you wish, through simple keywords on outline headings. Or you can start using lists (numbered, unnumbered, boxed). If you want to export for pretty printing, you can export even simple text that has no markup. If you want literate programming, not only is this just plain text markup, you have access to the programming languages' own modes and fontification. > > But it is the structure that provides the basis for those facilities? > > Since I don't know Org mode, I don't know what you mean by this > statement. "The basis" has various possible meanings and I can't tell > what you mean. Simply that if markup is there, org can use it. If there is no markup, the text is just text. Nothing more. Org mode is then just text mode. > The reason I don't know Org mode is that I'd have to start by learning > basic Org mode, which I am not interested in, before I see what its > specific features are. At that point, I gave up. Well, basic org mode is just text mode so learning it is a no-op. My default mode now for text files is org mode because it does not get in the way at all even if you do not wish to use any of the features. However, as soon as you want to try some of the features out, they are extras that do not stop you from working normally. Adding "TODO" to a headline automatically gives you task management. Obviously, this being emacs, there are many customisations and key bindings you can use (or change) but you can simply type text and all features become available. > Indeed, if you learned two of them, you'd see a similarity, and that > similarity might be called "Orgmode". Nothing wrong with that. > It would avoid the problem that Org mode has now. But org mode is not really about modes; it is about markup in a text file. That's what makes it powerful. If need be, you can edit your org files in text mode, or even fundamental mode. Obviously, to make use of the features the markup supports, you have to invoke the various org functions. In terms of software design, the key problems (many or most of which have been addressed) were related to regexps and fontification for large documents. The structure that org expects (but does not require) to support some of the more fancy issues has been cleaned up to improve scalability. Finally, in many ways, org exemplifies what is special about emacs: being able to work with simple text files but work the way I want through customisation and extension via elisp. -- Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D)