From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2018 02:29:01 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536196392 15604 195.159.176.226 (6 Sep 2018 01:13:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 01:13:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, spacibba@aol.com, Phillip Lord To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 06 03:13:07 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxir5-0003x7-JN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 03:13:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58842 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxitB-0003SY-OT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:15:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45998) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxiqf-0002Kp-RZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:12:42 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxiqe-0002cn-TE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:12:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::10]:19610) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxiqe-0002ac-HY; Wed, 05 Sep 2018 21:12:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536196359; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=cYVxKO6L7LLNpBoYNqYL7nEv5d6huhQfnP5odbZoELk=; b=nbofzrKPAlpVXTLpbmeFrByx/JdPzkQjUBnf/eALK1oDqE8jkySI7rifE7cpTxlBz4 xWVHs6x6YbUD7so/WzZPhp/zqJ3eSTo5CaOGlFyRXOVq8KmWf3H/dntpjvh/ULEtyk/6 ISUo0UlycFsp1fVedbE8Uziz0Cze/MDTqrAWzQ5x/WpMMPppSaIJDOILH5aN09MNeoDt lRvZA9uHXpp3nGl3E+C/a4s/xhNR53l/1tXXAp7Tzyij6hD5fm49ZjGxoHXZKPQ/RnnK hE0BnLMGBv6nJrPKwfYl/5nKgL3GXIdU9qgNsyH82qT4p90OTEwkD7TMMF90XkDoJLRf RnOA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u861Bi660 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Thu, 6 Sep 2018 03:11:44 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fxipj-00021m-Hj; Thu, 06 Sep 2018 03:11:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 05 Sep 2018 02:26:03 -0400") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229326 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Yeah. Most of that stuff is "move cursor back and forward". It's too > > slow for most new users and freaks them out. While it was well intended > > at the time, I think, it is now a negative feature of the tutorial. > > Users need to learn these commands in order to edit _efficiently_ with > Emacs. Why can they not edit efficiently with Emacs without learning the movement keys described in the tutorial? Keyboards have changed over the years, and using some of these movement keys would make editing very inefficient because they are rather difficult to press on nowadays` keyboards. The effect of having to re-learn, which may diminish the efficiency of editing, is also something to consider. There is much more to learn about Emacs than key bindings for cursor movement, and the movement keys in the tutorial may be amongst the least relevant things that help efficient editing. An email and a C source require different things to make their editing more efficient, hence Emacs has a C-mode and a Message-mode one might need to learn about, each with their own key bindings. > But maybe most beginners will not aim to edit _efficiently_ > and it is ok not to teach them this. With very few exceptions, people always do what they want without worrying about efficiency. A beginner learning about Emacs striving for the best efficiency of editing could easily be the most unlikely case --- and/or figure that using the cursor keys is more efficient than using key combinations that are difficult to press and hard to remember. > > I would like to add automation which would work better. So where it says > > "create a new frame", it would be nice to have a click button which > > actually does this for you. > > I don't follow. Concretely, what do you propose, and what is good about it? I haven't read it all yet. It starts with telling the reader what Emacs is and gives some history, and that seems to be a good starting point. It might make sense to have many tutorials for different topics, like "what are key bindings", "important key bindings", "movement keys specific to Emacs", "what are modes", "how to edit XXX efficiently" ...