From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Sergey Organov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 16:57:42 +0300 Message-ID: <87eerkgey1.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <83zha8tluq.fsf@gnu.org> <87v9kwi6ta.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <83wo5ccgg4.fsf@gnu.org> <87lflshxtq.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <83mu68cbbb.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7wghxdz.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="69252"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: rms@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, kfogel@red-bean.com, homeros.misasa@gmail.com, tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp, Eli Zaretskii To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 16 15:58:18 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jZxKT-000HtZ-Oo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 15:58:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59272 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZxKS-0003dM-Qo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 09:58:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56528) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZxJz-0003DI-OG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 09:57:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x241.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::241]:46793) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jZxJy-00052X-JF; Sat, 16 May 2020 09:57:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x241.google.com with SMTP id f18so5159024lja.13; Sat, 16 May 2020 06:57:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=3CUwApt8NBFAnPQcBCQFLlU1rjqAMasBxy8Qjv03JVE=; b=L7eRUCTOIkdAHTLXiAOjjF+MRiHRwDONpHQk1Df+qrnn0zdHS1DEI6CZ3SGo+qIQZs 5cWhZ6IX2xaxsGp1DFFCAR9RFM8G9Siyu1Lmo+LONT55Ov3RMEnv8Cn4SQS8aA92PC3h A/hNgMJfHVB7bQd4deoOa5h3xQW4hPVTSQ8D04Qr+1sTC1Bp4yLYlS6jEyK+ERkncXHx RW9bf9g57/lNmqGDUMP4kRNZTv6JiwbA5vM0Vcro+CBavUpMldho3puclYx2X07oLJNW ElIkQw6OkdLboUEAmJLGxDtQrpJAKPusyoXWtIt76DMgSkH9TELnReUmpptDpavTIDZA hWNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=3CUwApt8NBFAnPQcBCQFLlU1rjqAMasBxy8Qjv03JVE=; b=GllvlaZC+p0NPOVvQGH62hfUxK1Opg8GaeM4dGUnIddb3zjJNwHGPrkbATxYMYJHa7 e0lXt5f8QdW7susV8Jl5559ObjHYKF7/AoN8xaVH05/wSjTCerPKEACgBBjbjV1vlDtF xaWXjoXRhP1j5PR28RCkFOwnr17CuYQtoVkfbgdP+539pALGgVEIwz8X6OWRHSbG8y+1 1LhYF91ElCDvu0ybGEh8TmQ3J4/u08tXfhYWddsJiHV/GG1SCV/qj6eBw2vaWQyN8ew9 kSAZCsPfmVp4b8TEBHmbiW/uK9cAm+71u3vyMZpDpxfSDWoC1og+wkPiAX14Rki+DCgO STmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hQiGSOqDqpbEIo5CpOq6j2SqpA7r0yD1PpWSIRHiTuGT/PjhL enBX9xysNj6IrJbpUdobWxx1MEzP X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxbFg4S8eftPt5nWsgG8+LD2BYDdRFTxMvcguE5carDO3weeEgvLCHikqy44C04pxVhWNKtAw== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9e97:: with SMTP id f23mr5206421ljk.228.1589637463945; Sat, 16 May 2020 06:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from osv.localdomain ([89.175.180.246]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g1sm3198289lfb.85.2020.05.16.06.57.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 16 May 2020 06:57:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Sat, 16 May 2020 15:46:29 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::241; envelope-from=sorganov@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x241.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250492 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 16.05.2020 15:34, Sergey Organov wrote: >>>>>> And here there are 2 more problems for newbies. They usually expect >>>>>> pop-up/modal/ dialog to be thrown on them for anything but text input >>>>>> or moving around. >>>>> That happens in Emacs for some/many commands invoked via the menu bar. >>>> Then this must be rather easy to achieve for keyboard induced commands >>>> as well. >>> Not really. When the user invokes a command from the menu, we have a >>> clear signal that the mouse is being used, and therefore can display a >>> GUI dialog without fear. But when the user types "C-x C-f", how can >>> we know that he/she expects a dialog box and not a minibuffer prompt? >> My argument was that newbie never wants minibuffer prompt, so this is >> not an issue. I mean it'd always be dialog unless "newbie-mode" is >> turned off. > > My anecdata shows otherwise: it's never been a problem personally. What exactly? Failure to notice Emacs suddenly asking you for something in the minibuffer? I see it very often. Rarely newbies look at the bottom of the screen/frame when cursor is suddenly gone, even after some training. The most frequent instinct I see is clicking with the mouse at the position on the screen where they want cursor to be. Here is an example: 1. Type C-x b (imitation of accident keystroke) 2. Click with the mouse _here_ 3. In the menu click "Edit | Go To | Goto Line" Result? For me it's: completing-read-default: Command attempted to use minibuffer while in minibuffer error message that, besides, is again being output into minibuffer place, that for me even was immediately overwritten by a help string on a lisp variable as I was doing it in the *scratch*. Will any newbie be able to tell why this menu item suddenly didn't work as expected? I'd rather afraid they may think Emacs is buggy and unreliable. > > As for the newbies who want modal dialogs, surely they will use the > mouse and the toolbar to invoke the corresponding commands? This is unrelated to the context of the suggestion. Please recall that the problem being discussed is /accidental/ invocation of a command by a keystroke that brings newbie to minibuffer that she often doesn't even notice! If Emacs rather threw big shiny dialog into his face (even if only displaying this same minibuffer in it), it'd leave the newbie little chances to remain ignorant. In fact, many "expert" commands already do something like this, asking to be explicitly enabled. This is not that helpful for complete newbies though as the prompt still uses the minibuffer that newbies often forget to pay attention to in the first place. -- Sergey