From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 21:32:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87edh6h92o.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87y1ffh905.fsf@dataswamp.org> <25925.20298.762180.948150@orion.rgrjr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38443"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:rvKSW6sUeDCEb3hZ+jJrglr8TJQ= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 03 21:37:28 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qz0v2-0009pX-Up for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 21:37:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qz0uS-0001KU-0z; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:36:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qz0qD-0000qG-MT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:32:29 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qz0qA-00053N-To for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:32:29 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qz0q8-0001mV-0b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 21:32:24 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 16:36:51 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312178 Archived-At: Bob Rogers wrote: >> So let's hear it then, what is it that sets Emacs 18 Elisp >> apart from Emacs 30 Elisp . . . > > Briefly, it's now a much larger language . . . > >> and how is the Emacs 30 Elisp less coherent than the Emacs >> 18 Elisp? > > . . . and the additions have come from diverse sources. > It started as a Maclisp subset with extensions to support > editing. The issue is that the programming features have > grown, and not only from Common Lisp, moving it away from > its Maclisp roots. (This, I believe, is the gist of > Richard's complaint.) And the language editing features have > (not surprisingly) grown with Emacs' growth as an editor, as > they have had to do, which has unavoidably added to the > learning curve you have to climb before you can contribute > to Emacs. It has also made the language more about editing > and less about programming, which IMHO makes the style > question less acute. I understand that it has expanded in size, this is the nature of technology systems in general and perhaps even more so with Lisp programming, since it is so easy and fun to do. But I am still uncertain how this has changed the style and reduced the coherence of Elisp. Case in point, I don't see any such difference when I look at cl-lib.el? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal