From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:47:13 +0800 Message-ID: <87ed8d75ji.fsf@yahoo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16006"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , Daniel Colascione , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 01 12:48:33 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sOEaG-0003wb-RQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2024 12:48:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sOEZO-0006m0-9r; Mon, 01 Jul 2024 06:47:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sOEZL-0006lV-WE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2024 06:47:36 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.146]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sOEZI-00040Z-Ar for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2024 06:47:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719830848; bh=KgcHF9UnTyiztfhPgLWZWLnWbUorKD+4Tv7IlCw77bM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=UiXSDB6SQU9lwIDC6fuxMokMRaW8eVUBRCiww55VfYJkSJJMLsrnwLVjIZgDvYqHI0KrnYUQ60Taav7k0+DZwueJa6aImegziem8ek8CV8zzzWs+eqzbAq8IimeFqTvp80gqtnDybWh1zeUGcc9pQdCZnbAIsO/ZZCE/a7i0RNOO6vqWn/34rxoqccMRoxQ9OWY+Gc0GaaOMnNYqzuhcBrgDHwDymZkKAVarifo5pxHda1trJ3P+Ciy1HsT1vpKqr7pUgGJ9m4ZQ13oOkkXXCerdZwyQfSttIGSQJByFKbiscNJDlBuftf6mtrbEURpYMlHvyMrLzbBf8T9LBW7alg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1719830848; bh=uGF7rl/SAmgPUWF3LaxL/j7w6YY+NULVJUeJqkshQlO=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=NgprJGtl6drjMMHsoYqUqXQHBa1NAegb+TmPIEGYz+Lr9dwe86h/cLzYJwqOuZwEGcml33aQoy/zY/ZqvNeyfojch2GVIJbIfel8XltEqSODO+SVJrUBfS298F2dL/LUPsCfRQCxsws7BeT+yDg/Yp4PIaL7SQT2CQwXUGM63J/muZ/zSUrM9573xS69K3fNO2J2Ly0epYsEMVhmFedyKEnY/8xIO3kqiKyCCd8pFLdgsGJ7odQ+DFOxC3DuYX3XQhQQPYhiJFArXToUB6tIxoCwvlv11YCH+4pArlXq6tuDOvfRfHsiGRdkTSzPblz7SWXwWJF+uxaaI4f7y5sp7w== X-YMail-OSG: 6zp06MUVM1l1q_UZxH4Fp_9uDxODRRBLAgkZA7HTAztuSyxCg.HdVF769p9mmbB 5VIdMs3lUQHeQltCIhN.jVnqOsqrFu0qM81OgX78UoAsCZOUa5qAFE_sViKabReSiArXjTaOBtzT yibCEqYl_7GF41_aji9px1.wxLOsJRTG5HABE6bkqZdwi_8XstOhS6pxsY4QNb2quDBzjBSq9y0g KhGTURAI9xDzSugoxsvQ6iVfogK6os5jzHj8qjdQX2oJmKys_VW6K4IEUPPNzwHUGPDT65AFkvep Rw0vVByvEjMUSKutU.fYbtR66YHUTt8qOBl6xIewjVnsiqITyt4sGeb5nXCN393w0TTTFtPqBwk. nu1DVIc73tbcQIl1LwZ0VFf.vxYeL_f9s5O8nZw326xQVB_zrKeOCa1r4kMAJ3wwr71h_g35T5jP ENe3IkOsYx6kjb9U_dlKcewE5aY35.5o2fzgkGSsJbBU.8L6P9cTnzojIezog.gggzL4QI2nQZBm DwdY0Tk4JkbtE6jeCZado.1y15Kaa8pzJrPvkoitPYsQVoKmhKC60QMoibc1hGdvFNbKEAbK3FaS ivd3xaARSbeGYf7mDoLqXfTV5184oZSfD8Xa5mYBTOPXMFJ3j_t8ggy2zbDAtxq.s0SpcNY6hYwQ TwHsUjsvPPNPAEVmn291L5hX5TzYq7EK40zZpbhmZDu9YxnhXgZQL.XSigL7dU1pztB24ZaJ21jv hwMhsaeZ5w44b2Vi9dzI2jhT6qMI5KfYnHxO1g4NQqpmZYfqAEkjU1ChsymznCkABvETHrnvyJqw zpftObl17lx6huK.Q7yoVyuCwNAV9oNRa0Fv5svs4V X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 5ff191ea-b062-4cbd-ad0a-be97206beebc Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 1 Jul 2024 10:47:28 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-7b469d9f6-6hvhq (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID bf635a03ab7f7b44d2b6a0e11e563cc0; Mon, 01 Jul 2024 10:47:24 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 1 Jul 2024 10:07:27 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22407 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:321005 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > The above is true, but it misses the point. That point is that once the > Emacs maintenance team has added a _default_ binding, that can never in > the future be changed. People will scream "backward compatibility" > until the heat death of the universe. > > In that sense, "keybinding real estate" very much is a real issue - we > can only add so many default key bindings, and once added they are > difficult to change or to remove. Yes, but backwards compatibility is merely the tip of the iceberg. New keybindings introduce discrepancies between the habits of existing users and the expectations of recent adopters, and, for those users who have still to bind them, a new default keybinding that they will be reluctant to override. If only because they regard our work and our judgement with respect, which extends to the keybindings we select as well. All the more reason _NOT_ to adopt a collection of bindings in a keymap to which they are adventitious, and for a package objectively less popular than ffap, which does deserve a place in the said keymap, upon a proposal by their only user. >> In my view, having considered this discussion in full, the benefits of >> adding these key bindings, favored by several developers, therefore >> outweigh the perceived drawbacks. Used by one. Favored by several who probably have not formed strong opinions in either direction, as did the ingenuous respondents to the Time magazine poll mentioned here: https://www.commentary.org/articles/robert-myers/the-study-of-man-opinion-polls-and-public-policy/ >> - The proposal is to add global bindings, which AFAIU means that they >> will not affect people that are binding these keys to something else >> (whether globally or in specific modes). You state that it does not, but this has been disputed three times over in this thread alone (and again in the first paragraph), no one having so much as acknowledged the disagreement, let alone pretended seriously to offer a rebuttal.