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From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
	 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
	 Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.org>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2024 18:47:13 +0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87ed8d75ji.fsf@yahoo.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <ZoJ_31v8xqYICISc@ACM> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 1 Jul 2024 10:07:27 +0000")

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> The above is true, but it misses the point.  That point is that once the
> Emacs maintenance team has added a _default_ binding, that can never in
> the future be changed.  People will scream "backward compatibility"
> until the heat death of the universe.
>
> In that sense, "keybinding real estate" very much is a real issue - we
> can only add so many default key bindings, and once added they are
> difficult to change or to remove.

Yes, but backwards compatibility is merely the tip of the iceberg.  New
keybindings introduce discrepancies between the habits of existing users
and the expectations of recent adopters, and, for those users who have
still to bind them, a new default keybinding that they will be reluctant
to override.  If only because they regard our work and our judgement
with respect, which extends to the keybindings we select as well.  All
the more reason _NOT_ to adopt a collection of bindings in a keymap to
which they are adventitious, and for a package objectively less popular
than ffap, which does deserve a place in the said keymap, upon a
proposal by their only user.

>> In my view, having considered this discussion in full, the benefits of
>> adding these key bindings, favored by several developers, therefore
>> outweigh the perceived drawbacks.

Used by one.  Favored by several who probably have not formed strong
opinions in either direction, as did the ingenuous respondents to the
Time magazine poll mentioned here:

  https://www.commentary.org/articles/robert-myers/the-study-of-man-opinion-polls-and-public-policy/

>> - The proposal is to add global bindings, which AFAIU means that they
>>   will not affect people that are binding these keys to something else
>>   (whether globally or in specific modes).

You state that it does not, but this has been disputed three times over
in this thread alone (and again in the first paragraph), no one having
so much as acknowledged the disagreement, let alone pretended seriously
to offer a rebuttal.



  reply	other threads:[~2024-07-01 10:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 249+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-08-21 19:10 Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Daniel Colascione
2021-08-21 19:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-08-21 19:27   ` Daniel Colascione
2021-08-21 19:36     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-08-22  8:35       ` Juri Linkov
2021-08-21 19:42   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2021-08-25 13:12     ` Kaushal Modi
2021-08-21 20:20   ` Arthur Miller
2021-08-22  6:02     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-08-22  8:32       ` Arthur Miller
2021-08-22 13:43         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-08-22  0:43   ` Phil Sainty
2021-08-22  5:13   ` Teemu Likonen
2021-08-22  9:22     ` Teemu Likonen
2021-08-21 19:26 ` Arthur Miller
2021-08-22  8:37 ` Juri Linkov
2021-08-22 14:05   ` Arthur Miller
2021-08-22 19:16   ` Daniel Colascione
2021-08-22 17:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-08-22 22:01   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-08-23  5:16     ` Bozhidar Batsov
2021-08-24 21:33       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-08-25  3:42       ` Richard Stallman
2024-06-21 19:03   ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-21 20:39     ` Stefan Kangas
2024-06-23 10:05       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-23 11:14         ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 12:05           ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-23 12:30             ` Stefan Kangas
2024-06-23 13:29               ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-23 13:34                 ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 13:45                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-23 20:55                   ` chad
2024-06-23 16:32               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-23 12:57             ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 13:40               ` Po Lu
2024-06-23 13:45                 ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 14:15                   ` Po Lu
2024-06-23 14:22                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-24  7:41                       ` Gregor Zattler
2024-06-24 12:13                         ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-24 12:41                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-24 15:09                           ` Gregor Zattler
2024-06-24 15:36                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-25  1:41                               ` Joel Reicher
2024-06-24 15:57                       ` Petteri Hintsanen
2024-06-25 21:26                       ` Jeremy Bryant
2024-06-26 11:23                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-26 11:44                           ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-26 13:19                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-26 13:57                               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-26 15:38                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-26 15:49                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-28 19:47                                 ` Hovav Shacham
2024-06-28 20:45                                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-29  7:02                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-01  1:58                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2024-06-26 13:22                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-26 13:51                               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-26 14:13                                 ` Po Lu
2024-06-26 14:21                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-26 15:15                                     ` Po Lu
2024-06-26 15:27                                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-26 15:42                                       ` Colin Baxter
2024-06-26 16:00                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-26 14:41                                   ` Joel Reicher
2024-06-26 15:43                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-26 14:49                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-26 17:02                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-26 14:27                               ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-26 15:14                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-26 13:53                             ` Po Lu
2024-06-26 14:18                               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-26 14:48                                 ` Po Lu
2024-06-26 14:27                               ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-26 14:51                                 ` Po Lu
2024-06-26 15:01                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-27 15:35                                 ` Augusto Stoffel
2024-06-26 17:02                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-07-02  6:28                       ` Visuwesh
2024-06-23 14:28                     ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 14:37                       ` Po Lu
2024-06-23 14:45                         ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-24 10:35                       ` Joel Reicher
2024-06-23 16:32                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-23 13:48                 ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 14:14                   ` Telemetry, opt-in,opt-out [was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove] tomas
2024-06-23 14:18                     ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 15:23                       ` Stefan Kangas
2024-06-23 15:34                         ` tomas
2024-06-23 19:46                     ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-23 21:12                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-25 14:28                         ` [External] : Re: Telemetry, opt-in, opt-out " Madhu
2024-06-25 17:19                           ` Drew Adams
2024-06-25 23:03                           ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs development discussions.
2024-06-28  4:02                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-06-28  5:28                       ` Telemetry, opt-in,opt-out " Ihor Radchenko
2024-06-28  6:33                         ` tomas
2024-06-23 14:25                   ` Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Po Lu
2024-06-23 14:38                     ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 15:24                 ` Stefan Kangas
2024-06-23 15:36                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-23 16:32                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-23 19:10                 ` Gregor Zattler
2024-06-23 13:59               ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-23 14:06                 ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 16:32               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-23 18:44         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-23 18:51           ` Daniel Colascione
2024-06-23 19:26             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-23 19:34               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-23 19:55                 ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-23 21:12                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-23 20:07               ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-06-23 21:12                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-23 21:09               ` Drew Adams
2024-06-23 19:52           ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-23 20:07             ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-06-23 20:23             ` Stefan Kangas
2024-06-23 21:12             ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-24  2:28             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-24 10:41               ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-06-24 11:45                 ` Po Lu
2024-06-25  2:26                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-24  3:29       ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-06-24  4:23         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-06-24  7:18           ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-06-24 14:46             ` Drew Adams
2024-06-24  6:32         ` Juri Linkov
2024-06-26 15:48       ` Stefan Monnier
2024-06-26 20:38         ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-06-27  5:16           ` Attitude (was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove) Eli Zaretskii
2024-06-27 12:19             ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-01  1:29         ` Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Stefan Kangas
2024-07-01 10:07           ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-01 10:47             ` Po Lu [this message]
2024-07-01 11:12               ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-01 13:20                 ` Po Lu
2024-07-01 18:21                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02  0:52                     ` Po Lu
2024-07-01 11:25             ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-01 13:28               ` Po Lu
2024-07-01 13:34                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-01 19:05                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-01 21:24               ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-01 22:07                 ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02  1:00                   ` Po Lu
2024-07-02  3:26                     ` C-o (was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove) Stefan Monnier
2024-07-02  4:34                       ` C-o Po Lu
2024-07-02  5:59                       ` C-o Gerd Möllmann
2024-07-02  6:23                       ` C-o Visuwesh
2024-07-02 12:51                       ` C-o Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02 13:06                         ` C-o Po Lu
2024-07-02 13:39                           ` C-o Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 14:02                             ` C-o Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-07-03  9:24                             ` C-o Po Lu
2024-07-03 11:33                               ` C-o Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-03 12:15                                 ` C-o Po Lu
2024-07-02 14:02                       ` C-o T.V Raman
2024-07-02 15:36                         ` C-o Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-07-02 22:27                       ` C-o Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2024-07-02 22:31                       ` C-o (was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove) Stefan Kangas
2024-07-02 22:44                       ` C-o Jeremy Bryant
2024-07-03 10:07                       ` C-o (was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove) Per Starbäck
2024-07-03 12:48                         ` C-o Howard Melman
2024-07-03 16:24                           ` C-o Yuri Khan
2024-07-03 16:32                             ` C-o Howard Melman
2024-07-05  4:14                               ` C-o Richard Stallman
2024-07-05  4:28                                 ` C-o Howard Melman
2024-07-03 19:13                           ` C-o Bob Rogers
2024-07-02  7:28                   ` Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Philip Kaludercic
2024-07-02 11:41                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02  1:01                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02  1:51                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-07-02  2:20                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02  3:47                       ` Drew Adams
2024-07-02 22:41                   ` Stefan Kangas
2024-07-02  1:47                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
     [not found]                 ` <87h6d87op5.fsf@dancol.org>
2024-07-02 13:08                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-01 14:43             ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-07-01 18:12               ` [External] : Re: Proposal: new default bindings for windmove. [Working minor mode] Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-01 18:18                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-04  2:26             ` Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove Richard Stallman
2024-07-01 23:18           ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02  1:02             ` Po Lu via Emacs development discussions.
2024-07-02  2:03               ` Howard Melman
2024-07-02 12:21                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02  3:29               ` Stefan Monnier
2024-07-02  4:14                 ` Po Lu
2024-07-02 13:04                   ` Stefan Monnier
2024-07-02 13:36                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 14:20                       ` Stefan Monnier
2024-07-02 14:43                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 12:18               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 12:52                 ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 13:34                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 13:53                     ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 14:15                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 14:41                         ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 15:00                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 22:28                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-03  3:14                   ` Hovav Shacham
2024-07-02  6:50             ` Juri Linkov
2024-07-02  8:07               ` Yuri Khan
2024-07-02 16:27                 ` Juri Linkov
2024-07-02 11:50               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 16:32                 ` Juri Linkov
2024-07-02 16:47                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 12:46               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 13:31               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-07-02 18:03               ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02 18:07                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-07-02 18:29                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 18:30                 ` Yuri Khan
2024-07-02 20:00                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02 21:15                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-07-02 22:30                       ` Drew Adams
2024-07-03 11:56                     ` Yuri Khan
2024-07-03 13:53                       ` Stefan Monnier
2024-07-03 14:14                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-03 16:15                         ` Yuri Khan
2024-07-03 16:26                           ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-03 22:12                             ` John ff
2024-07-02 18:34                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-02 19:08                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-07-02 19:53                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02 20:12                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-02 21:13                       ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-03  6:21                         ` Juri Linkov
2024-07-02 21:54                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02 18:37                 ` Juri Linkov
2024-07-02 20:03                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-03  6:24                     ` Juri Linkov
2024-07-03 13:48                       ` Stefan Monnier
2024-07-03  6:56                 ` Visuwesh
2024-07-02  7:08             ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-07-02 11:46               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 13:31                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-02 13:52                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-07-02 13:55                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-07-02 14:42                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-07-02 15:36                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-07-02 11:57             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-07-02 23:20             ` Stefan Kangas
2024-07-03  1:19             ` Liu Hui
2024-06-23  6:59     ` Juri Linkov
2021-08-22 18:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-08-22  7:37 Boruch Baum
2024-07-02 16:36 Pedro Andres Aranda Gutierrez

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