From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Sebastian Rose Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:14:01 +0200 Message-ID: <87d4pae8ja.fsf@gmx.de> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <20080331224833.GB5911@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1207008885 8549 80.91.229.12 (1 Apr 2008 00:14:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 00:14:45 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel Mailinglist Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 01 02:15:16 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JgU9k-00061c-80 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:15:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JgU97-0003oM-M6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:14:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JgU92-0003nx-W4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:14:33 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JgU90-0003nX-7K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:14:31 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JgU90-0003nT-3n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:14:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JgU8z-0000mO-RO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:14:30 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 01 Apr 2008 00:14:27 -0000 Original-Received: from unknown (EHLO beteigeuze.gmx.de) [212.23.103.94] by mail.gmx.net (mp039) with SMTP; 01 Apr 2008 02:14:27 +0200 X-Authenticated: #8529601 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/qW3Ie3jfqE3RrEMn2mjwW4CCkZHwckeJ70U1lUb +bgqJkoWzE9mn1 In-Reply-To: <20080331224833.GB5911@muc.de> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:48:33 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:94075 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > To see this confusion, just peruse this sentence from the page "Transient > Mark" in the Emacs Manual: > > If the variable `mark-even-if-inactive' is non-`nil' in Transient > Mark mode, then commands can use the mark and the region even when it > is inactive. ...and the rest of the truth is the documentation for `mark': mark Function: Return this buffer's mark value as integer, or nil if never set. In Transient Mark mode, this function signals an error if the mark is not active. However, if `mark-even-if-inactive' is non-nil, or the argument FORCE is non-nil, it disregards whether the mark is active, and returns an integer or nil in the usual way. If you are using this in an editing command, you are most likely making a mistake; see the documentation of `set-mark'. Here is, where the former words get their sence. > In truth, T-M-M is a ragbag of features arbitrarily conflated into a > single option: There's (i) region highlighting; (ii) a variant of > narrowing, for certain commands; (iii) disabling the mark. Anything else > I've missed? Maybe using transient-mark-mode and have some commands narrowing to the region ;) This is something I use all the time. Having replace-string replacing from point to end of buffer is useless in many cases. And if I wont to do that, I just don't create a region. Here TMM adds an editing feature to emacs, IMHO. > Yet to get this wider audience, what this wider audience is getting is > getting less and less like Emacs. They're getting TMM since I use emacs. And since then I have to turn TMM on, if I want to use it. This was never a propblem. > As somebody who prizes simplicity, clarity and logical cohesion, making > this psuedo-T-M-M default fills me with revulsion. There's got to be > better ways of attracting new users. I don't care about defaults at all as long they don't change all the time. But I think TMM is somewhat underestimated here. Visualization is what attracs users today. Make the application think for me makes it a usefull tool. There are about 7 registers in short time memory in an avarage brain. I rember the point and the mark even after a 2 hours phone call if the region is highlighted. And *ploink* remember why. right-click to create a highlighted region, and by more right clicks on any end of that region resize it (this could not be done without highlighting). Or cut the region by double-right-click (and inserting by middle-click as usual). Very convinient in some cases. Regards, Sebastian