From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Wojciech Meyer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 01:17:21 +0100 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87d3vx5cku.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87pr07qjio.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <878w6vq7ew.fsf@thinkpad.tsdh.de> <871vcmhq79.fsf@wivenhoe.ul.ie> <580d5f23-e251-483f-9752-7e77b1ca2fb7@40g2000pry.googlegroups.com> <2a7dc148-e2cc-4681-9d8c-ccd1140aa6d7@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com> <089883ee-0a63-4cb4-a0ec-d2fe4e71cc03@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <87wruco5yq.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87wrubfd8p.fsf@rapttech.com.au> <848w6ndwn0.fsf@cs.bham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1291947416 13818 80.91.229.12 (10 Dec 2010 02:16:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 02:16:56 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 10 03:16:52 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PQsXQ-0008Fn-HR for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:16:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46235 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PQs9h-0001HE-S9 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:52:18 -0500 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!goblin1!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.emacs,comp.lang.lisp Original-Lines: 60 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: CpBZbVU3CbIGy51jEm1ApA.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:TdpvLSfi6XkXOVSfwsDyE4nsxHA= User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:178846 comp.emacs:100002 comp.lang.lisp:288953 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 20:23:36 -0500 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:77187 Archived-At: Mark Crispin writes: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Uday S Reddy posted: >> By community ownership, I only mean that all the people that have a >> stake in the system have a voice in the matter and we all feel >> ownership of the system. When the community is divided, as seems to >> be the case on this issue, the developers have to make a decision >> and move on. Well it is certainly possible, one can use mailing list and the NEWS file, which was suggested before. > This sort of thing happened in the past as well. The difference was > that there was accountability in the past that is absent today. What sort of acountability, I think unhappy `customers' is enough punishment. > I have a new task on my list: replace emacs in the procedures for my > target audience since emacs is no longer suitable for that purpose. I > simply can not tell these users "make sure that you set > line-move-visual to nil"; they would have no clue what that means. > More likely than not, I will end up being obliged to write a program > for the task; and there will be one less way those users will be > exposed to emacs. What kind of Emacs users are they? Isn't possible to place on every machine a stub containing: (setq line-move-visual nil). > > One of the advantages of the "software tools" mindset of the past was > that you did not have to write a program for every task. Instead, you > could leverage the existing tools. That falls apart when those tools > are corrupted so that they no longer can be relied upon to produce > predictable results. It is ever more true now. > >>> But even the laymen become power-corrupted. >> I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. They have a >> responsibility to bear and sometimes they get carried away. > > Every young programmer wants to put his own mark on things. The > problem is that these changes are frequently ill-considered and > sometimes have bad consequences. There is nothing wrong in being young and creative, that makes often things better. Young people often do care more about things then Senior Architects, they are also more flexible for changes. The reason why this setting wasn't kept by default is to fix the fundamental problem, without additional cost of keeping this setting hidden. People have full rights to receive the fixes like this, as you have full rights to complain about them. This is part of the game, IMHO Emacs does not change that often, and really keeps things the same, just because there is nothing to fix apart from things that need to be changed in order to guarantee future of Emacs. Wojciech