From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: if vs. when vs. and: style question Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:03:51 +0200 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Message-ID: <87d23s4nt4.fsf@debian.uxu> References: <87sicvwckx.fsf@wmi.amu.edu.pl> <87wq27yvqg.fsf@debian.uxu> <8d531e99-7260-4263-ac99-09c6871e2708@googlegroups.com> <87vbhq53lf.fsf@debian.uxu> <87a8z23p23.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <87lhilx0cf.fsf@debian.uxu> <87twx9360u.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> <0d1d19ab-06e9-462d-8867-9a49b1e232d3@googlegroups.com> <87pp7x2jav.fsf@kuiper.lan.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1427590827 30312 80.91.229.3 (29 Mar 2015 01:00:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 01:00:27 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 29 03:00:21 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yc1aM-0001Kq-Hh for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:00:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55612 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yc1aL-0004ai-Ir for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Mar 2015 21:00:17 -0400 Original-Path: usenet.stanford.edu!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help Original-Lines: 97 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: feB02bRejf23rfBm51Mt7Q.user.speranza.aioe.org Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:LCPdiKiSN5qz7ueBrhKoEq8tf+Q= Mail-Copies-To: never Original-Xref: usenet.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:211135 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:103417 Archived-At: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" writes: >> For 50 years CS has been living in the impoverished >> world of ASCII. This makes people think CS and math >> are more far apart than they essentially/really >> are. I wrote this as my wish for python: >> http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicoded-python.html >> Isn't it about time lisp also considered >> a similar line? > > Take a random computer. Type λ. Type lambda. > Which one was easier? It is much easier, quicker, and more pleasant to type "lambda" even though that word isn't the easiest to type. It is also much easier and more pleasant to read, and we (even the Greek when it comes to computing) have a landslide more experience doing it. > With this font-lock, you type (lambda (epsilon) (* 2 > epsilon)) and you see: (λ (ε) (* 2 ε)) the buffer > and file still contain (lambda (epsilon) (* 2 > epsilon)) but it's displayed as greek letters. > This can of course be expanded to more > unicode symbols. It can, but it is better if you see what you type when you type it, and later, you see exactly what you once typed and what still is in effect and nothing else. To have the equivalence of several hundred abbrevs all expanding back and forth is plain seasickness, which by the way has been the cause of countless of suicides during centuries of naval bravado. > The next step, is to use a system like HAL/S or the > one implemented for scheme -> LaTeX, which reformat > formulae in sources using a Mathematic rendering > engine such as LaTeX (or ASCII art in the case of > HAL/S). LaTeX should be used for very specific cases when you do super-ambitious documents, like manuals and university papers, that are to be read by *humans* (who use different computers and printers), documents that are likely not change continuously other than the occasional fix, and documents that contain tons of strange notation because they are intended for the scientific community of whatever branch they belong. LaTeX should not be used for the web just as HTML should not be used in mails. I know it is possible - question is: is it *sensible*? To have LaTeX style *programming* is first grade lunacy: I'd say just a few circuits from short circuiting. It would be impractical and time-consuming beyond belief. Just compare the time it takes to write this mail - no time - to the time typesetting it in LaTeX. With the \documentclass and packaged and \subsections and all. You can spend hours on that. ASCII should always be used for anything that is intended to be computer used, computed, portab... no: interchangeable! > The important point is that you keep the source in > ASCII, so it's easy to type and to process anywhere. That's exactly right - and that's the whole thing and purpose and appeal of it. So if you didn't notice it by intuition and common sense it is logical as well. So, apart from the easy, pleasant and consistent input and much more convenient reading, ASCII also wins the computer-computer interaction battle, and not just the human-computer ditto. > The success of lisp and unix over the decades shows > that simplier tools win on the long term. > Contrarily to graphic programming languages (such as > UML) or other "experiments", or more complex > systems, object-based or other (LispMachines), which > will eventually break and be forgotten by most and > regretted by few). One hundred percent correct! All those silly tools are intended so the programmer can be replaced by people who cannot program. So far that hasn't happen - and I am confident it never will. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573