From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Becoming an Emacs contributor Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:56:08 +0200 Message-ID: <87d1w9k8bb.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <87si59wj42.fsf@T420.taylan> <878u6znii9.fsf@T420.taylan> <836123gfh2.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3krm0t3.fsf@T420.taylan> <5624F66F.1030600@yandex.ru> <87io63lzkg.fsf@T420.taylan> <562508B7.3020202@yandex.ru> <876122n5v3.fsf@T420.taylan> <22053.50324.60123.654292@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87d1waknl1.fsf@T420.taylan> <87oafugeia.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87io61epbv.fsf_-_@wanadoo.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445348173 14598 80.91.229.3 (20 Oct 2015 13:36:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:36:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 20 15:36:13 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoX55-0005IH-5y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:35:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45865 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoX54-0000SM-IL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 09:35:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44893) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoWSa-0001qO-Ic for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:56:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoWSZ-0007dR-6l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:56:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]:33324) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZoWSY-0007dH-UQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 08:56:11 -0400 Original-Received: by wijp11 with SMTP id p11so46037223wij.0 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 05:56:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jDB9ushIOG/XUoc5eDt0gIId/kxPCqj8U9zo2/2vbv0=; b=gFHRxpkg62tJSJq2hBjI3b5JZqVMzawNQEqdDE3cHzVwROoQwBabs55GkdL3NNwDju HMGJtIyXMjp8QGsWCtuKYPNV4UqRpWbY9NmyN8RCkPpGJq3+ALMF2nn/x0vNdjDH3ib4 IMJJzr9j68erDv3C2p9fU4ExbT7autdHQsYyjT2p6PJ/sQEyivOZwIBISyXVi0eszRe0 ts4pusLYYynM0+3HEBP/lSr22Thm8XciBWE1E2avXIHCQVMUJm6eFSOUloP0U2PpSB8y PaTr9//K2itug1WZvS9azeOpT4su7+loTzZNf57uNkcRu9ulPUnaVXeaXqZZZjZWyoyw 1CJA== X-Received: by 10.180.221.227 with SMTP id qh3mr5275924wic.71.1445345770384; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 05:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bv2sm3735856wjc.11.2015.10.20.05.56.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 05:56:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87io61epbv.fsf_-_@wanadoo.es> (=?utf-8?Q?=22=C3=93scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:45:08 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192182 Archived-At: =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > "John Wiegley" writes: > >>>>>>> David Kastrup writes: >> >>> You don't need to speak in riddles. I am quite used to seeing my name >>> explicitly written in such contexts. >> >> I've found your contributions to be quite helpful on the whole, David. >> >> Lately I've heard and read many things about emacs-devel's "culture" and= how >> it stifles newcomers. This is something to take seriously, but I don't t= hink >> the issue should be over-simplified just to find a place to put blame. >> >> We're a lot of people. We have a lot of experiences. This is no one's fu= ll- >> time job. We all communicate differently. >> >> Given those truths: as soon as the number of people involved becomes >la= rge, >> any perception you choose to adopt of such a group will generally be tru= e in >> some ways, and false in several other ways. >> >> Some of the concrete problems I've heard about that could be meaningfully >> addressed are: >> >> 1. Some patches die in the bug tracker. They get submitted; the authors >> respond to the criticism; but there is no closure. This gives people= the >> impression that their efforts are being wasted on Emacs development,= so >> they move elsewhere. >> >> 2. Sometimes people can be abrasive. This isn't something you can solve= by >> mandate, or by posting a code of conduct. It requires a willingness = on >> the part of participants to assume the best of others, and not expect >> them to do all the work revealing it. >> >> There could be things we might do here, like making the list passive= ly >> moderated so we can silence egregious posters. But I haven't seen >> anything yet to warrant this type of response. >> >> 3. Newcomers don't understand our culture. If you've grown up in the fa= st- >> paced GitHub world of one button PRs and brief discussions on Twitte= r, >> the culture and pace of emacs-devel may well shock you. Some of us a= re >> OLD, and we like our lawns kid-free a goodly part of the time. >> >> Now that is no excuse for bad manners, but it does mean we don't just >> "hop to it" when a shiny toy comes along. Be patient, give us time. = And >> maybe, if your patch is withering on the vine, remind someone? >> >> I think we have good people, who pay attention to meaningful issues. Not >> everything we do needs to be instantly appealing to those unfamiliar wit= h our >> history of development. But if it's needlessly off-putting, that should = be >> brought up and remedied too. > > You forgot *the* problem newcomers face with emacs-devel: bikeshedding. > Even the most trivial contribution can bring huge amounts of discussion, > mostly improductive. And what is productive, often has little real > value. The contributor is overwhelmed by minutia, hypothetical > (unspecified) corner cases, requests for extended features "because we > should completely cover what the user might need", complains about the > code doing too much (at the same time of the previous item.) And > misunderstandings, lots of misunderstandings, which is a huge problem > because some well-meaned top hackers here are overly argumentative. (See > how often emacs-devel or emacs-bugs hosts threads with hundreds of > messages.) > > I've made just a few contributions to Emacs and my experience says that > it can be an exasperating process, draining lots of energy. Once you got > commit access and you are trusted to not ask for permission for > operating on certain areas, things turn to be much better, but even then > you confront discussions with other hackers about matters where no clear > criteria exists for setting the matter. > > Emacs would benefit from a process that avoids those repetitive, > unproductive discussions that only end when one part resigns by > exhaustion, bringing in frustration. > > I think that Stefan tried to do something about this, by encouraging > early inclussion of code, as soon as there was clear that the code is an > improvement for Emacs. In lots of cases, it was obvious that the code > was far from the optimum solution, but it was a positive trade-off. > > We could create the figure of mentor, who takes care of a contribution > (singular) and advices the contributor until the code is good enough, > and then he makes sure it is committed. Other people could chime in on > the technical discussion, but the contributor only listens to the > mentor. > > BTW, this has nothing to do with the parent thread, which I haven't > followed. This actually sounds pretty similar to what happened in this thread in some ways, although it differs in other ways, so thanks for the input! Taylan