From: "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Ctrl-[ ?
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 21:40:07 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87d0jnooh4.fsf@telefonica.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 20190608135853.GA4323@tuxteam.de
<tomas@tuxteam.de> writes:
> On Sat, Jun 08, 2019 at 04:30:14PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> > From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
>> > Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2019 15:06:54 +0200
>> >
>> > Nobody is asking for a change on the default bindings, what we are
>> > saying it that the user should be allowed to set the binding the
>> > same way he does for any other binding.
>>
>> If you or someone else believe they know enough about the Emacs
>> keyboard input processing to propose its redesign which will satisfy
>> the above requirement [...]
No, I don't know enough. I just looked at keyboard.c for several minutes
and can only understand your cautions about touching what it seems a
pile of bugfixes on top of a stack of hacks to deal with quirky
terminals shoehorning new paradigms like guis into a pre-existing
tty-based design. Oh, and the interactions with the display engine, as
if handling terminals were not complex enough on itself.
>> Current situation is nowhere near such expertise. Suffices it to say
>> that several times during the recent years when we needed to make
>> seemingly-simple changes and fixes in that code, no one had the
>> courage to approve such changes. For some of them, it later turned
>> out that we broke some subtle but important use cases, for others we
>> still have our fingers crossed. So please don't expect any
>> significant redesigns in that any time soon, as long as all we do is
>> vent steam here. We have an enormously complex piece of software on
>> our hands, and we have no better choice than going the "inconvenient"
>> ways when we want to rebind an unusual key.
>
> Well said. The only one stepping forward with some code was Stefan,
> and personally, I find it a bit discouraging
What I find discouraging is this phrase on the above quoted message:
>> ... Suffices it to say that several times during the recent years
>> when we needed to make seemingly-simple changes and fixes in that
>> code, no one had the courage to approve such changes.
I'm sure that that is not Eli's intention, but encouraging it is not.
> that folks just keep
> saying what "Emacs Should Do" without investing much effort into
> understanding what's there and what other users need/want.
Care to explain how the proposed change would take away from you?
> Software development is a collective effort, and it takes listening
> as well as talking, I think.
I listened as hard as I can, and still don't understand why you react
this way to this issue, when several times we explicitly said that
nothing would change on the default behavior.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-06-08 19:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 107+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-06-06 4:49 Ctrl-[ ? Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 7:26 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 8:13 ` Andreas Schwab
2019-06-06 10:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 12:37 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 13:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 13:28 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 12:44 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-06-06 13:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 13:25 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 14:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 6:21 ` Marcin Borkowski
2019-06-07 8:34 ` joakim
2019-06-06 13:26 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-06-06 13:32 ` Juanma Barranquero
2019-06-06 14:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 15:01 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 15:33 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-06-06 17:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 17:33 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-06-06 17:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 18:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-06 18:48 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-06-06 19:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 15:02 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-06-07 19:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 21:01 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-06-07 23:48 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-08 6:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-12 8:08 ` Søren Pilgård
2019-06-12 8:56 ` Ergus
2019-06-06 18:55 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-10 0:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-06-10 0:42 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-10 16:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-11 15:36 ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2019-06-11 15:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-11 16:31 ` Yuri Khan
2019-06-12 12:22 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-06-12 12:14 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-06-12 13:12 ` Alan Mackenzie
2019-06-12 13:38 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-06 13:28 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-06 14:00 ` Drew Adams
2019-06-06 12:58 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-06 12:58 ` Ralph Seichter
2019-06-06 13:42 ` tomas
2019-06-06 14:08 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 14:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-06 15:27 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 18:29 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-06 23:08 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-06 23:26 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-06 23:35 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-07 6:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 11:43 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-07 13:16 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-07 22:04 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-08 6:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-08 14:14 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-07 3:36 ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-07 4:30 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-07 4:43 ` Emanuel Berg via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-07 5:04 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-07 6:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 8:04 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-07 8:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 13:19 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-07 13:54 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-07 14:23 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-07 15:17 ` Noam Postavsky
2019-06-07 13:45 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-07 14:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 18:20 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-07 20:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-07 16:30 ` tomas
2019-06-08 0:05 ` Francis Belliveau
2019-06-08 0:31 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-08 8:44 ` tomas
2019-06-08 11:48 ` 조성빈 via help-gnu-emacs
2019-06-08 11:56 ` tomas
2019-06-08 13:06 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-08 13:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-08 13:54 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-08 14:03 ` tomas
2019-06-08 14:22 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-08 15:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-09 0:52 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-09 6:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-09 6:51 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-06-08 13:58 ` tomas
2019-06-08 19:40 ` Óscar Fuentes [this message]
2019-06-08 20:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-06-08 20:28 ` tomas
2019-06-08 21:03 ` Francis Belliveau
2019-06-08 21:38 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-09 0:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-09 1:24 ` Óscar Fuentes
2019-06-18 22:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-11 23:05 ` Francis Belliveau
2019-06-14 6:51 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-06-14 12:06 ` [offtopic] " Van L
2019-06-14 12:24 ` tomas
2019-06-15 9:12 ` Van L
2019-06-15 9:44 ` tomas
2019-06-15 12:38 ` Van L
2019-06-09 6:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
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