From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#6436: 23.2; C-h C-h incomprehensible to new users Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:41:22 -0700 Message-ID: <87d0gyulwd.fsf@mouse.gnus.org> References: <201006160818.59184.arne_bab@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="37530"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: 6436@debbugs.gnu.org To: Arne Babenhauserheide Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 22 01:42:20 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aFA-0009fG-Dv for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2019 01:42:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37094 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aF7-0004fd-Q4 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:42:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50795) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aEt-0004fE-Jd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:42:04 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aEs-0000Zq-Hy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:42:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:56217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aEs-0000Zg-Ez for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:42:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aEs-0007Kr-AI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:42:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 23:42:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 6436 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 6436-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B6436.156643089628143 (code B ref 6436); Wed, 21 Aug 2019 23:42:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 6436) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Aug 2019 23:41:36 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36802 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aER-0007Jr-Sp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:41:36 -0400 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:45248) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aEP-0007Je-AK for 6436@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:41:33 -0400 Original-Received: from 77.18.59.87.tmi.telenormobil.no ([77.18.59.87] helo=sandy) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i0aEI-0007hJ-RA; Thu, 22 Aug 2019 01:41:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201006160818.59184.arne_bab@web.de> (Arne Babenhauserheide's message of "Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:18:51 +0200") X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:165541 Archived-At: Arne Babenhauserheide writes: > The integrated help in emacs is a great tool for beginners to learn > emacs, and C-h d, C-h k, C-h m and C-h t are extremely useful. > > Sadly the sheer number of help options made it extremely hard for me > in the beginning to find out what help I really needed. Most times is > was simply C-h d or C-h k. > > So I=E2=80=99d suggest to seperate the help options into two parts: =E2= =80=9Cneeded often by=20 > most people=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cneeded only in very specific situations= =E2=80=9D.=20 > > Then just put the first at the beginning of the help output (common help= =20 > options) and in a next paragraph add the rest (advanced help options).=20 > > That should make it far easier for beginners to find the help topic they = need=20 > (and I can safely tell people =E2=80=9Cif you need help, just type C-h C-= h=E2=80=9D).=20 (I'm going through old bug reports that have unfortunately gotten no attention yet.) I think the difficult thing here would be to figure out what help commands are needed often and which ones are more obscure. For instance, I use `C-h f' all the time, and I never use `C-h d', so I think it just varies. I don't think there's any really obscure ones until we get to the `C-h C-' help stuff (like `C-h C-w'), and those are already deempathised by being last. So I think the current alphabetical organisation makes the most sense in the long term, and I'm closing this bug report. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no