From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Bob Newell Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:44:43 -1000 Organization: Avi Gobbler Publishing Message-ID: <87d073sj7o.fsf@emailmessageidheader.nil> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <83zha8tluq.fsf@gnu.org> <87v9kwi6ta.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <83wo5ccgg4.fsf@gnu.org> <87lflshxtq.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <83mu68cbbb.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7wghxdz.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <87eerkgey1.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <112aecd7-8165-6cae-ef69-08d14d843841@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="43621"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 16 22:45:48 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ja3gq-000BH0-BC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 22:45:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36638 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ja3gp-0000DD-DN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 16:45:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39098) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ja3ft-0007fC-K0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 16:44:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]:51831) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ja3fs-0003nu-Bv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 16:44:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id mq3so2674509pjb.1 for ; Sat, 16 May 2020 13:44:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobnewell-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:subject:organization:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=AcZqtD/TxqreNBD0KkNbOyedbGmYWztaseF7n/gidpw=; b=sugYq4vtju0nbcERTaoXfBzcsR4kqgx7HsXZALDhWgPx4/WtevhapWL4le3cC0JmjZ 1WHnOiNBYYgadApfBk5ze1avd5MhhlQSWG+CWgWI6SbcjSMX3aSfI50uCBbVsWPS/j/W 7EOmCAtQu4Za8V4rCFu4/S4F3YZTkALR2EKHSvxMZzLUNxlxVT5wy85e7Dbp2tVj/kr8 RRYaoGghuxNvnoGTq5JZPRaG9VvMIwOCnBjgyI1Mf2U9kZDPXp+7PCp7nIglJW7hN2H5 UjPTgNESNugjpeP42lLqnSn/+6Bc/teRwRxMb8KlqNOSM5OEphRL33RHTV0z7GFF5BAz wbmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:organization:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=AcZqtD/TxqreNBD0KkNbOyedbGmYWztaseF7n/gidpw=; b=JKmrreorIoMOs223vGR7GtNpuypKmCRByGu4UWLGT4tGDSbguwbFRQCqvK1kRFTqS1 Dws1X7u1mkB+70bmVEAmQsisr2j0latFcUGAurHaHuMD0U0yeo2V3zfI02Fbu7jkMho1 5cp6e8qHCCAKwCV7zjVfvK4Efx5IlqBQaBLKyKNFbnrbSgA6W2asrcK7ErtgOi+TsoAg Gaoy715ixbUYQ7AF2uNBnsdrDz3hTQ/XjmySD/8+f3ZYm9+3swk0zxMMn53O6klVOAkx JiizIhHtxF+g07eFxkjmnMorfuwgEf9XyXtdCriXsuxHkJxE31kprX97NIzr36edaE/5 LYWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+28qLuBwji25bLYVrVTRJYlc8z0eA7N896Thyy0UA/y2Ztugp I83QC4MzJnp6vIaPvEBB/M3WFcfWir0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzBfOdBNOilMJOBKjNCxTsF9mMGPXmdkHDrSqHm6gOSzcDLb2ZwaVEgPJ6uR69Q2PvYEZu5eA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b685:: with SMTP id c5mr9977262pls.154.1589661885870; Sat, 16 May 2020 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (udp072992uds.hawaiiantel.net. [141.239.244.209]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t188sm4887876pfb.185.2020.05.16.13.44.44 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 16 May 2020 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 16 May 2020 16:05:49 -0400") Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b; envelope-from=bobnewell@bobnewell.net; helo=mail-pj1-x102b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250527 Archived-At: Aloha everyone, I'm getting into this a bit late, but I have a slightly contrarian view. I certainly agree with the idea that Emacs is a tool that, like all serious and complex tools, requires effort, and a measure of how good the tool is can be found in how well the effort is rewarded. With Emacs my experience has been that the rewards are enormous, even if the effort involved is certainly non-trivial. But is there any high-caliber tool (in any field of endeavor) that doesn't require effort to master? But let me contradict myself a little. I have been using Emacs literally for decades, and have not "mastered" it, in the sense that while I have what are to me sophisticated use cases, I learn new things all the time. That is a tribute to the power and depth of Emacs, and I consider this a positive feature--- I'm always learning new ways to get even more out of the tool. So, does Emacs take a day or three weeks or four months or years to "master"? It should be an ongoing, layered experience. The difficulty here for newcomers (as I have alluded to in other threads) is the current "instant gratification" mentality: the attitude that if I can't get into something quickly and with minimal effort, I'm not interested. I first learned Emacs through the tutorial. If a newcomer were to spend a couple of hours with the tutorial, basic usage would be immediately possible and there would be an enticing glimpse of things to come. I was at least minimally productive with Emacs within part of an afternoon. Is that good enough? I think so, but it does require a least some willingness to branch out into the unfamiliar. A week later, I could do more things. A year later, I could do a lot of things. Decades later, it's an indispensible tool with "killer" features such as org-mode and (yes!) gnus ... and as I said above, there are always new things. If newcomers could be enticed with a layered approach, I think some of them, at least the ones for whom Emacs is long-term suitable, may see the advantages and follow the path; and long though it may be, they will be increasingly more productive along the way. This implies more tutorials, organized in this layered manner. It's important, though, to be able to do the basics in a relatively short time. But that's already possible. The existing tutorial in fact does really cover the essentials. The "must-know" features (after learning how to move the cursor and so on) are C-g and 'undo'. Learn those and you can always get out of a spot; and the tutorial is very clear on this. Now here's the contrarian part: Emacs uses different terminology, different keybindings, and an overall different approach from many Unix tools and certainly from Windows tools. Should we (optionally for newcomers) change that? I say 'no' and the reason is that from the get-go, I think potential new users should understand that Emacs is different, is built on a different paradigm, and does things in a different way. In the long run, it's embracing these differences that makes Emacs the tool that it is. I'd submit that if the differences fatally deter a newcomer, then perhaps that newcomer was never an Emacs candidate. And I'll add my usual disclaimer: I do /not/ view Emacs as a tool for some sort of snobbish elite to which you gain entrance only through initiation rites and having the proper pedigree. Emacs, in fact, is a tool for anyone who is willing to invest in it. Finally, as a sort of illustrative footnote: there is a terminal-based text editor called "Fe, the folding editor" written long ago by Michael Haart (moria.de). It isn't well know and isn't in any Gnu-Linux distros that I'm aware of. It is really a minimalist (non-extensible) Emacs to the extent that it uses Emacs keybinding and contains just enough essential features (like keyboard macros) to make it very useful for many text editing use cases. It more or less represents the level of productivity I had achieved after maybe a couple of days with Emacs way back when. But that is an amazingly useful amount. -- Bob Newell Honolulu, Hawai`i - Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB