From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_A=2E_Gomes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:30:11 +0300 Message-ID: <87czoqxpvg.fsf@gmail.com> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <874ka5gsqa.fsf@gnus.org> <25d8d72022b571db5291@heytings.org> <87h7e2xsl5.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2870"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) Cc: Richard Stallman , psainty@orcon.net.nz, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Gregory Heytings , joaotavora@gmail.com, Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 30 13:31:26 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVuHe-0000bP-92 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:31:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56030 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVuHc-0001S6-G5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:31:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60214) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVuGY-0000bC-DE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:30:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::134]:42795) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVuGW-0007fL-CH; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 07:30:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id x27so23769760lfa.9; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:30:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7OTAAe0u3XHdpUjPViHVqg13K+b9sk7LocWY0SMwtWk=; b=EnBnMYHfdSiCRFioNq2prgIHaovigglp8wDfnnIRjb0JWE/GQIbvQfHrx2qLy0eucc FBUr826xOvAuNTca9IPCl+0AnAxm9npL1kgDYfsfuRo9xW2UVNYBCLZ7e9Y0PvcGeuss en3s77n/ZI6UnzHvzaRbiH5vzW25nwFkxxwQJrcTW6i8IDQmBn3Ntzf1WKs0mf0MKqpW kQZ2NNM0dFKzDXQzjI0QquWHfQ64BdN3A9TauY43i+ujYRv5mZQLpIBc3UqSR9noND62 owD+nX6eCez6r0B51ufW8zseIam/Zd4QG7XRt1YZMh0c1JUEuj1GfAkYMPO5cvhuJB6U Z0Ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7OTAAe0u3XHdpUjPViHVqg13K+b9sk7LocWY0SMwtWk=; b=2/B1laKyoCLnvpPBa3FiQYK+Z8G6LzKzrkasp5LsfeZbTSpTx9OmybS0blKENiYFrY x8t30jOLjFOedFBD7tZrVBy7E4bQHxXmFdLqtydDuzvvZTY7RO87G1kfAeUIJUXpKrF4 rKN6zlCMH7XDFpwvtocirqELx8zKqdIC9OJov2vGZtM/BpGQIsfcd5T++MeW4oShNq8E ZMI5UzkGIMyxUDwvBqvnCOiDJd3oJpLYfRj45aB16TktwxDm7eO0DCLNiYejTKK4Hddg KescMPSTNLVVfNh7wQ6PtiB2aqpVrCxM4/tATgW6ofXyiaGXJoSY0e6iKe3WL6pim0Z3 1tUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530rAIS8m6HAkQJpEu1NZepjOLotNHEOvIsD9mzcZBJPfbh47TDB ym4+E40qw6qjEjKa/ZcNGcY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJziD0ZRpoIxzUcHcY+JFoS4O3zLkeTpHpPnsulzPXHQEizDIA+RY1QQ6iuoY0kqTXtmnVIiRQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:130e:: with SMTP id x14mr5300337lfu.98.1633001413835; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from guix-xps13 (95-29-46-69.broadband.corbina.ru. [95.29.46.69]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f26sm314040ljj.82.2021.09.30.04.30.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 04:30:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:54:13 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::134; envelope-from=andremegafone@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x134.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275873 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Andr=C3=A9. > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 13:31:34 +0300, Andr=C3=A9 A. Gomes wrote: >> Gregory Heytings writes: > >> > A simple example: suppose you want to check which ELPA package >> > activates tab-bar-mode. That's easy to do with "grep -R tab-bar-mode" >> > in a clone of the ELPA repository. With symbol prefix renaming, a >> > package author might decide to add ("tb-" . "tab-bar-") in the >> > shorthands of the package, and "grep -R tab-bar-mode" will not show >> > anything. Likewise for tag systems, the symbols that are recorded >> > will possibly be different in each package, and a search for >> > tab-bar-mode will not return occurrences of tb-mode. > >> I don't think this is a problem. Grep comes the world of Unix and its >> mantras. But Lisp REPLs come from another world. > >> Using grep and tag systems to reason about a Lisp program is like eating >> soup with a fork. You can do it, but it's the wrong tool. > > That is a very negative and unhelpful thing to say. Do you have the > requisite background to say it? What precisely would you use in place > of grep, which is a powerful, easily learnt, fast, universal tool? > > My experience is that grep is an essential tool for Emacs maintenance. I'm sorry that my words had a negative impact towards you or others. I acknowledge and value the efforts of any member of this community. My words were misinterpreted perhaps. Firstly, I also eat soup with a fork, i.e. I also grep Lisp source code. But I must be honest with myself, and admit it's not the right tool. Indeed, grep is a universal tool that can be used to inspect any textual data. But powerful Lisp environments (think Slime) are "aware of themselves" and do better than grep does. My point is thus simple and far from being original. A culture shock between "Unix" and Lisp exists, and it has been discussed to death (for instance in the "UNIX Haters Handbook"). I think shorthands is a good idea. While the grep claim is true, I find it orthogonal in the sense that we're judging the adoption of a new idea by the wrong standards. Again, I apologize. --=20 Andr=C3=A9 A. Gomes "Free Thought, Free World"