bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Hi,

I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8
Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find
the style of these sections insulting.

While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
topic.

3.15 Exiting Gnus has

   Note:

     Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
     go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
     sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
     back of her plastic chair.

I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
find this section insulting.

Further, the last sentence in

‘z’
     Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’).  This doesn’t really exit
     Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer.  I’m not
     sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?

is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.

3.16 Group Topics

    If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
    them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
    here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
    you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
    even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
    groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!

Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often
negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel
disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the
first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful
pieces of information coded inside?

After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted
jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is
distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally)

8 Scoring has

    Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
    better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
    something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
    attention!

For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
.. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
make people feel uncomfortable.

Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
files on file system?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[dick]

The guy was 20 when he wrote the now-in-retrospect mealy-mouthed and
profoundly unfunny manual.  Even I, someone who's repeatedly landed
himself in hot water ribald off-color remarks, can see his attempts at
levity and irreverence fall flat.

Gnus is, by current standards, largely shit software, so its manual is
oddly fitting.  I wouldn't worry about it.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* dick <dick.r.chiang@gmail.com> [2023-02-06 20:51]:
> Gnus is, by current standards, largely shit software, so its manual
> is oddly fitting.  I wouldn't worry about it.

Bad manners, dick!

I recommend reading books about etiquette for personal improvement.

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:01:50 +0000
> 
> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable.

It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable.
The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what
a sad world would that be!  (Come to think about, the only way to
never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.)

> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
> files on file system?

A "kill file" is a filter that discards posts you don't want to read,
ever.  For whatever reasons.  See

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable.
>
> It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable.
> The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what
> a sad world would that be!  (Come to think about, the only way to
> never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.)

You are overgeneralizing.
Some jokes make larger fraction of people uncomfortable than others.
There should be a borderline.

Of course, drawing a line is tricky. However, the topics like sex and
bullying are considered uncomfortable by whole cultures, not just
individuals. I judge such jokes as over the border.

For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered
more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation
is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs
manuals?

>> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
>> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
>> files on file system?
>
> A "kill file" is a filter that discards posts you don't want to read,
> ever.  For whatever reasons.  See
>
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file

Thanks for the reference. So, this sentence is not a joke. A footnote
would help for younger users, who haven't heard about Usenet. (I've
heard, but I am not familiar with English segment jargon).

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered
> more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation
> is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs
> manuals?

*I was referring to USA taking race jokes more seriously.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
> Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2023 16:38:44 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> I object jokes that make people feel uncomfortable.
> >
> > It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable.
> > The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what
> > a sad world would that be!  (Come to think about, the only way to
> > never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.)
> 
> You are overgeneralizing.
> Some jokes make larger fraction of people uncomfortable than others.
> There should be a borderline.
> 
> Of course, drawing a line is tricky. However, the topics like sex and
> bullying are considered uncomfortable by whole cultures, not just
> individuals. I judge such jokes as over the border.
> 
> For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered
> more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation
> is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs
> manuals?

Who is overgeneralizing now?

Are there such jokes in our manuals?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> For comparison, AFAIU, joking around skin colour and race is considered
>> more insulting than joking around sex. In other cultures, the situation
>> is opposite. Would you accept joking around human races on Emacs
>> manuals?
>
> Who is overgeneralizing now?
>
> Are there such jokes in our manuals?

I was trying to provide illustration that helps to understand the
perspective of non-USA user. Apparently, it was not helpful. Feel free
to ignore this kind of example. The previous two paragraphs are the main
statement.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Petteri Hintsanen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It's a losing battle, but: every joke makes someone uncomfortable.
> The only way of making no one uncomfortable is to never joke, and what
> a sad world would that be!  (Come to think about, the only way to
> never make someone uncomfortable is to say nothing at all.)

I tend to agree here.

Looking at the big picture, Gnus manual is full of jokes, irony,
self-deprecation, and other literary devices.  It is a losing battle to
try to somehow clean it up by cutting some, possibly objectionable or
confusing, thorns.  The manual is full of them.

The whole manual should be rewritten, if one wants to have it written in
"neutral" style -- whatever that would be.  For the sake of argument,
let's say that "without literary gimmicks of any kind."

I _personally_ find the current Gnus manual a creative work that clearly
reflects its author's personality, which I consider a benefit.  For me
the manual is mostly amusing, occasionally annoying, and, at some
points, downright hilarious, like the completely out of scope "note"
about hazy trance.  OTOH, I like Lars' writing style and his sense of
humor.  I understand others may not.  It's okay, we are different.

As for adjusting the tone of the current manual, I don't see much return
of investment.  That energy would be better spent elsewhere.  I'd leave
the current manual as-is.

Thanks,
Petteri

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Petteri Hintsanen <petterih@iki.fi> writes:

> Looking at the big picture, Gnus manual is full of jokes, irony,
> self-deprecation, and other literary devices.  It is a losing battle to
> try to somehow clean it up by cutting some, possibly objectionable or
> confusing, thorns.  The manual is full of them.

I do not think that objectionable jokes are many in the Gnus manual.
I do not think that jokes Gnus manual are all bad.
I believe that we can improve the jokes in the Gnus manual, replace
some, or add new. We cannot treat manuals as a complete literary piece
that must not be changed significantly even when the underlying software
is being actively developed.

> The whole manual should be rewritten, if one wants to have it written in
> "neutral" style -- whatever that would be.  For the sake of argument,
> let's say that "without literary gimmicks of any kind."

I do not think so. We can have jokes in GNU manuals. Officially.
https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor

> As for adjusting the tone of the current manual, I don't see much return
> of investment.  That energy would be better spent elsewhere.  I'd leave
> the current manual as-is.

I believe that the current manual can be improved without rewriting. It
is more likely than someone rewriting it.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

It is ok to have jokes, but this manual also has a serious job to do:
explain how to use GNUS, in clear language that is easy to understand.

If the explanation depends on getting a joke that not everyone gets,
that is a bug, and it needs to be fixed.

Would someone like to write a patch to say what "kill file"
seriously means, and what "scoring" means, right after the joke
about them?



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Pankaj Jangid]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8
> Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find
> the style of these sections insulting.
>
> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
> topic.

I am outside USA, and I really enjoyed reading the Gnus manual. Infact,
this is one of those manuals which a user can read end-to-end in one
sitting, without getting bored.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@codeisgreat.org> writes:

>> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
>> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
>> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
>> topic.
>
> I am outside USA, and I really enjoyed reading the Gnus manual. Infact,
> this is one of those manuals which a user can read end-to-end in one
> sitting, without getting bored.

Thanks for the input!

May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find
them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific
examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Pankaj Jangid]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find
> them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific
> examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise.

Most of the jokes are contextual. And sometimes they carry an assumption
that the user is already familiar with Emacs jargon.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@codeisgreat.org> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> May you also take a look at the specific sections I listed? Do you find
>> them easy to understand? I'd prefer to focus more on the specific
>> examples I raised. I feel like the discussion will go nowhere otherwise.
>
> Most of the jokes are contextual. And sometimes they carry an assumption
> that the user is already familiar with Emacs jargon.

Sure, but what about the specific examples I provided?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
> topic.

I am not American, yet I understand most of the jokes in the Gnus
manual.

> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>
>    Note:
>
>      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
>      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
>      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
>      back of her plastic chair.
>
> I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> find this section insulting.
>
> Further, the last sentence in
>
> ‘z’
>      Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’).  This doesn’t really exit
>      Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer.  I’m not
>      sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
>
> is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
> is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.
>
> 3.16 Group Topics
>
>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!
>
> Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often
> negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel
> disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the
> first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful
> pieces of information coded inside?

I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a
public news server.

> After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted
> jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is
> distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally)
>
> 8 Scoring has
>
>     Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
>     better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
>     something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
>     attention!
>
> For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
> word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
> .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
> make people feel uncomfortable.
>
> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
> files on file system?

Gnus is a news reader.  Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in
its manual are those who read net news.  Since you don't know what a
kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that
paragraph.

The internet is for adults, not silly folk who cry about everything they
don't understand.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

>> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>>
>> ...
>> 3.16 Group Topics
>> ...
>
> I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a
> public news server.

May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?

>> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
>> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
>> files on file system?
>
> Gnus is a news reader.  Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in
> its manual are those who read net news.  Since you don't know what a
> kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that
> paragraph.

Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
which is present in the same paragraph.

> The internet is for adults, not silly folk who cry about everything they
> don't understand.

I do not mind not understanding. But I do prefer to have manuals written
in such a way that I can at least distinguish jokes from the technical
information I actually need to use GNUS. I admit that the paragraph
about "kill files" is clearly distinguishable as a joke. Not so much for
3.16 Group Topics where jokes and non-jokes are rather mixed.

Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use
GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to
use GNUS?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>>>
>>> ...
>>> 3.16 Group Topics
>>> ...
>>
>> I think this joke is fairly obvious for anyone who has tried to browse a
>> public news server.
>
> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?

This one:

3.16 Group Topics

    If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
    them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
    here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
    you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
    even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
    groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!

I do understand the rest as well.

> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
> which is present in the same paragraph.

There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
newsgroup?

Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
a life!

> I do not mind not understanding. But I do prefer to have manuals written
> in such a way that I can at least distinguish jokes from the technical
> information I actually need to use GNUS. I admit that the paragraph
> about "kill files" is clearly distinguishable as a joke. Not so much for
> 3.16 Group Topics where jokes and non-jokes are rather mixed.
>
> Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use
> GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to
> use GNUS?

No, but they are not expected to understand the jokes in the manual for
a _newsreader_ either.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

>> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?
>
> This one:
>
> 3.16 Group Topics
>
>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!

Thanks.
I also partially understand the joke.
My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
technical or still part of the joke.

    You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
    Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both!

The paragraph structure is basically:

 <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>

Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
is not understood.

To summarize, my problem is not a joke and not that I understand it or
not. My problem is that I do not fully understand technical descriptions
in this paragraph.

> I do understand the rest as well.

Ok. I am especially confused about the Note: part in 3.15 Exiting Gnus
has. I fail to see a joke there. (this is not important in the context
of this bug, I am just curious)

>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>
> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
> newsgroup?
>
> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
> a life!

While I do agree that people should ideally understand that jokes are
not aiming to offend them, even if the topic is not acceptable in
someone's culture, it is not practically the case for all the users.

In particular, topics sensitive within whole cultures (sex, race,
female bullying) are likely to distract (or worse) a significant
fraction of Emacs users from acquiring the technical context of the
manual. The fact that another fraction of the Emacs users find such
jokes pleasing does not change this fact.

I would also like to point out that GNUS is well-known to be
hard-to-grasp. A manual loaded with large amount of culture-specific
jokes does not help in this regard. In particular, I do find "3.16 Group
Topics" section of the manual difficult to understand precisely because
it is overloaded with jokes.

>> Also, note that Gnus is also email client. Are people who intend to use
>> GNUS for email supposed to understand Newsgroup terminology in order to
>> use GNUS?
>
> No, but they are not expected to understand the jokes in the manual for
> a _newsreader_ either.

Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>> May you please elaborate which joke you are referring to?
>>
>> This one:
>>
>> 3.16 Group Topics
>>
>>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!
>
> Thanks.
> I also partially understand the joke.
> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
> technical or still part of the joke.
>
>     You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
>     Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both!
>
> The paragraph structure is basically:
>
>  <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
>
> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
> is not understood.
>
> To summarize, my problem is not a joke and not that I understand it or
> not. My problem is that I do not fully understand technical descriptions
> in this paragraph.
>
>> I do understand the rest as well.
>
> Ok. I am especially confused about the Note: part in 3.15 Exiting Gnus
> has. I fail to see a joke there. (this is not important in the context
> of this bug, I am just curious)
>
>>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>>
>> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
>> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
>> newsgroup?
>>
>> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
>> a life!
>
> While I do agree that people should ideally understand that jokes are
> not aiming to offend them, even if the topic is not acceptable in
> someone's culture, it is not practically the case for all the users.
>
> In particular, topics sensitive within whole cultures (sex, race,
> female bullying) are likely to distract (or worse) a significant
> fraction of Emacs users from acquiring the technical context of the
> manual. The fact that another fraction of the Emacs users find such
> jokes pleasing does not change this fact.
>
> I would also like to point out that GNUS is well-known to be
> hard-to-grasp. A manual loaded with large amount of culture-specific
> jokes does not help in this regard. In particular, I do find "3.16 Group
> Topics" section of the manual difficult to understand precisely because
> it is overloaded with jokes.

> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts.

They do not.  End of discussion.

Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately
tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''.
They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they
report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't
understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc.

Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they
appear.

Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen
other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such
individual.  And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a
problem with the jokes therein.  Just read it again until you do.
How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it
at least once or twice?

                         XcmsCIELabClipL

  This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the
  screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness
  (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the
  gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond
  maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the
  same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab
  coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See
  `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary.

Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes
of crusaders?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

>>> 3.16 Group Topics
>>>
>>>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>>>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>>>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>>>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>>>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>>>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!
>>
>> Thanks.
>> I also partially understand the joke.
>> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
>> technical or still part of the joke.
>>
>>     You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
>>     Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both!
>>
>> The paragraph structure is basically:
>>
>>  <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
>>
>> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
>> is not understood.
> ...
>> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts.
>
> They do not.  End of discussion.

I kindly disagree. 3.16 Group Topics section was difficult to
understand _for me_ precisely because of the jokes. I will elaborate
below.

> Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately
> tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''.
> They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they
> report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't
> understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc.
>
> Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they
> appear.

Upon hearing about the problem and checking the specifically indicated
sections in the manual, I tend to agree with the person being offended.
Not because I am not offended (I am not), but because, as I stated
earlier, I believe that jokes should not complicate the understanding.

> Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen
> other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such
> individual.  And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a
> problem with the jokes therein.  Just read it again until you do.
> How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it
> at least once or twice?

Absence of bug reports does not imply that the manual is easy to
understand. I do not say that it is incomprehensible, but the examples I
pointed to do make it harder to understand. Won't it be an improvement
to make the manual easier to understand for more people?

>                          XcmsCIELabClipL
>
>   This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the
>   screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness
>   (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the
>   gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond
>   maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the
>   same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab
>   coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See
>   `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary.
>
> Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes
> of crusaders?

I do not see any problem with the provided paragraph. Yes, it contains a
lot of unfamiliar terms, but they appear to be necessary to describe the
technical information. In contrast, jokes do not convey any new
information. They are good to have as an _occasional_ distraction - a
break that may be necessary to simplify understanding; but not good when
they make understanding more difficult.

Imagine a joke inserted into your example, on top of all other
unfamiliar terms:

> This brings the encountered out-of-gamut (not gonad, mind you) color
> specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or
> increasing (let's not think further) CIE metric lightness (L*) in the
> CIE Lab color space until the color is within (mmm...) the gamut.

Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes
when trying to understand the above sentence?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
> editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>>> 3.16 Group Topics
>>>>
>>>>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>>>>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>>>>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>>>>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>>>>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>>>>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> I also partially understand the joke.
>>> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
>>> technical or still part of the joke.
>>>
>>>     You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
>>>     Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both!
>>>
>>> The paragraph structure is basically:
>>>
>>>  <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
>>>
>>> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
>>> is not understood.
>> ...
>>> Not when the jokes stay on the way of understanding the technical parts.
>>
>> They do not.  End of discussion.
>
> I kindly disagree. 3.16 Group Topics section was difficult to
> understand _for me_ precisely because of the jokes. I will elaborate
> below.
>
>> Where I come from, it is generally said that a person who deliberately
>> tries to find problems with something is trying to ``pick pricks''.
>> They are usually able to find some problems, because the problems they
>> report tend to, by definition, rely on their own testimony: ``I don't
>> understand'', ``I'm offended by'', etc.
>>
>> Such people generally ruin the day for everyone else wherever they
>> appear.
>
> Upon hearing about the problem and checking the specifically indicated
> sections in the manual, I tend to agree with the person being offended.
> Not because I am not offended (I am not), but because, as I stated
> earlier, I believe that jokes should not complicate the understanding.
>
>> Whoever reported the problem with the Gnus manual, which has not seen
>> other such reports in over 20 years, certainly sounds like one such
>> individual.  And if you don't understand the manual, then it is not a
>> problem with the jokes therein.  Just read it again until you do.
>> How many people can understand the following sentence without reading it
>> at least once or twice?
>
> Absence of bug reports does not imply that the manual is easy to
> understand. I do not say that it is incomprehensible, but the examples I
> pointed to do make it harder to understand. Won't it be an improvement
> to make the manual easier to understand for more people?
>
>>                          XcmsCIELabClipL
>>
>>   This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the
>>   screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness
>>   (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the
>>   gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond
>>   maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the
>>   same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab
>>   coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See
>>   `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary.
>>
>> Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes
>> of crusaders?
>
> I do not see any problem with the provided paragraph. Yes, it contains a
> lot of unfamiliar terms, but they appear to be necessary to describe the
> technical information. In contrast, jokes do not convey any new
> information. They are good to have as an _occasional_ distraction - a
> break that may be necessary to simplify understanding; but not good when
> they make understanding more difficult.
>
> Imagine a joke inserted into your example, on top of all other
> unfamiliar terms:
>
>> This brings the encountered out-of-gamut (not gonad, mind you) color
>> specification into the screen's color gamut by reducing or
>> increasing (let's not think further) CIE metric lightness (L*) in the
>> CIE Lab color space until the color is within (mmm...) the gamut.
>
> Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes
> when trying to understand the above sentence?

I didn't see ``let's not think further'' in the Gnus manual.  And no,
your additions do not make it harder for me to understand that sentence.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

>> Would you find it helpful or at least neutral to have these extra jokes
>> when trying to understand the above sentence?
>
> I didn't see ``let's not think further'' in the Gnus manual.

Sorry, I do not understand this sentence.

> And no, your additions do not make it harder for me to understand that
> sentence.

I see. Then, we are in clear disagreement here.

Maybe others can chime in to clarify if jokes in 3.16 Group Topics
section of GNUS manual hamper the understanding or not.

Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs
survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes,
and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture
compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other
people prefer.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Sorry, I do not understand this sentence.

The phrase, ``let's not think further'', deliberately implies that
whoever is reading the manual should not think about the topic any more.

That phrase does not appear in the Gnus manual.

> Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs
> survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes,
> and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture
> compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other
> people prefer.

What happens with all such a polls is that the mob which has been trying
to remove all traces of possibly offensive material from software will
arrange for themselves to be represented disproportionately relative to
the majority of normal people who do not care at all.

Instead of a poll, I'd rather we stay with the status quo, since it
evidently already works.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> Sorry, I do not understand this sentence.
>
> The phrase, ``let's not think further'', deliberately implies that
> whoever is reading the manual should not think about the topic any more.
>
> That phrase does not appear in the Gnus manual.

Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual
because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to
clarify of the manual?

>> Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs
>> survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without jokes,
>> and asking which one is preferred? That will draw a more clear picture
>> compared to just two mailing list dwellers arguing about what other
>> people prefer.
>
> What happens with all such a polls is that the mob which has been trying
> to remove all traces of possibly offensive material from software will
> arrange for themselves to be represented disproportionately relative to
> the majority of normal people who do not care at all.

Can't we just add an extra answer to observe if such people are
over-represented? Just asking if they enjoy, stay neutral, or feel
offended about the version with jokes?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual
> because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to
> clarify of the manual?

Yes, when it is clear to most people that they do not impair the ability
to understand the manual.

Many people do not understand English.
Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> Do you imply that users who did not understand certain parts of manual
>> because of presence of jokes should just try harder instead of asking to
>> clarify of the manual?
>
> Yes, when it is clear to most people that they do not impair the ability
> to understand the manual.

I agree that jokes that do not impair the ability to understand the
manual are ok.

I disagree that jokes in "8 Scoring" and "3.16 Group Topics" do not
impair the understanding. For me, section 8 and section 3.16 are harder
to understand because of jokes. I even missed some of the technical
statements.

A note "3.15 Exiting Gnus" does not impair my understanding. Just make
me feel confused about what it means.

> Many people do not understand English.
> Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then?

Please, do not use appeal to ridicule.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Please, do not use appeal to ridicule.

But that's the point.

Most people will find ridiculous that the following paragraph:

   Other people use ``kill files'', but we here at Gnus Towers like
   scoring better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They
   do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
   attention!

makes the subsequent four paragraphs describing score files less clear:

     All articles have a default score (`gnus-summary-default-score'),
  which is 0 by default.  This score may be raised or lowered either
  interactively or by score files.  Articles that have a score lower
  than `gnus-summary-mark-below' are marked as read.

     Gnus will read any ``score files'' that apply to the current group
  before generating the summary buffer.

     There are several commands in the summary buffer that insert score
  entries based on the current article.  You can, for instance, ask Gnus
  to lower or increase the score of all articles with a certain subject.

     There are two sorts of scoring entries: Permanent and temporary.
  Temporary score entries are self-expiring entries.  Any entries that
  are temporary and have not been used for, say, a week, will be removed
  silently to help keep the sizes of the score files down.

similarly, most people will also agree that being written in English
does not prevent them from understanding Emacs documentation.

If you glance at the first paragraph, and decide to stop reading after
that, it is not a problem with the Gnus manual.  It is a reading
comprehension problem on your part.

If you really find that the first paragraph impairs the clarity of the
next four, contextually independent, paragraphs, then you are part of a
very small demographic.

Several months ago, someone came up with the idea to delete all
amusements from Emacs, and move them to ELPA (or something along those
lines.)

Asking us to delete every joke that someone finds confusing is not far
from those lines, and is in fact a very slippery slope leading directly
to that proposal.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> Please, do not use appeal to ridicule.
>
> But that's the point.
>
> Most people will find ridiculous that the following paragraph:
>
>    Other people use ``kill files'', but we here at Gnus Towers like
>    scoring better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They
>    do something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
>    attention!
>
> makes the subsequent four paragraphs describing score files less clear:

No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less
clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains
technical information that is hard to understand without understanding
the joke.

> Asking us to delete every joke that someone finds confusing is not far
> from those lines, and is in fact a very slippery slope leading directly
> to that proposal.

I am not asking to delete every single joke. I am asking to change or
delete the jokes that impair ability of the manual to explain the
technical information. Note that I specifically listed concrete jokes in
the initial report.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less
> clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains
> technical information that is hard to understand without understanding
> the joke.

But then that information is explained further down.

> I am not asking to delete every single joke. I am asking to change or
> delete the jokes that impair ability of the manual to explain the
> technical information. Note that I specifically listed concrete jokes in
> the initial report.

I disagree that those jokes prevent the manual from being understood by
people with normal reading comprehension skills.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less
>> clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains
>> technical information that is hard to understand without understanding
>> the joke.
>
> But then that information is explained further down.

Do you mean in different section?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > No, the first paragraph does not make the following paragraphs less
  > clear. My problem with this paragraph is different: if contains
  > technical information that is hard to understand without understanding
  > the joke.

That may be a key to making progress.  If some readers can't understand
the technical information, that is indisputably a problem.  The question
is how to fix it.

Can you show is concretel what technical information is hard to understand
for those who don't get the joke?  I have never used GNUS.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> That may be a key to making progress.  If some readers can't understand
> the technical information, that is indisputably a problem.  The question
> is how to fix it.
>
> Can you show is concretel what technical information is hard to understand
> for those who don't get the joke?  I have never used GNUS.

The paragraph in question is

    8 Scoring
    
    Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
    better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
    something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
    attention!

The technical information is that unlike the concept of
"killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus
introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and
also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring
over killing.

I had to read forward, backward, and specifically search for keywords to
understand the above.

[*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that
    match some criteria.
[**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does
     not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus
    threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like
    matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the
    total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and
    even hide threads with score below certain threshold.

[***] 8.13 Kill Files
         In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a
      lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite
      your kill files into score files.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]


  > The technical information is that unlike the concept of
  > "killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus
  > introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and
  > also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring
  > over killing.

  > [*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that
  >     match some criteria.
  > [**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does
  >      not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus
  >     threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like
  >     matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the
  >     total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and
  >     even hide threads with score below certain threshold.

  > [***] 8.13 Kill Files
  >          In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a
  >       lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite
  >       your kill files into score files.

Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 00:19:47 -0500
> 
>   > The technical information is that unlike the concept of
>   > "killing" [*] that may be familiar to Usenet software users, Gnus
>   > introduces the idea of "scoring" [**]. Scoring is a more powerful (and
>   > also faster [***] compared to killing. Gnus recommends using scoring
>   > over killing.
> 
>   > [*] "killing" in Gnus is, AFAIU, hiding (not deleting) threads that
>   >     match some criteria.
>   > [**] First mentioned in 3.7 Group Score, but actually more general (does
>   >      not only apply to Groups). Score is a number assigned to Gnus
>   >     threads according to a number of criteria - each criteria (like
>   >     matching some words in subject/body) will increase/decrease the
>   >     total score. Gnus can then sort threads according to their score and
>   >     even hide threads with score below certain threshold.
> 
>   > [***] 8.13 Kill Files
>   >          In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a
>   >       lot_) than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite
>   >       your kill files into score files.
> 
> Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information?

Done.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

  > > Can you rewrite the actual paragraph to include all that information?

  > Done.

Thanks.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 61325@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 19:41:47 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Many people do not understand English.
> Should we write Emacs documentation in some other language, then?

These aren't orthogonal: we can have the manual in English _and_ in
other languages.  (In fact, we want to; it's just that no one has yet
volunteered to do the humongously monumental job of translating the
manual into any other language, and then maintain the translation over
the years.)

Exaggeration is a mother of many failures to agree on common goals.
So is over-generalization.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2023-02-07 19:16]:
> Or, would it be even better to run a small poll, similar to Emacs
> survey, presenting two versions of the section: with and without
> jokes

Poll for jokes... either it is funny for somebody, or not funny for
somebody, it is personal, there is no poll about personality, it is
how it is. You are experiencing the author, not the robotic technical
manual! Why not be happy for that.

You see, those jokes also wait for this discussion to take place! 

What a great "program" by writing simple text.

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  >   This brings the encountered out-of-gamut color specification into the
  >   screen's color gamut by reducing or increasing CIE metric lightness
  >   (L*) in the CIE Lab color space until the color is within the
  >   gamut. If the Psychometric Chroma of the color specification is beyond
  >   maximum for the Psychometric Hue Angle, then while maintaining the
  >   same Psychometric Hue Angle, the color will be clipped to the CIE Lab
  >   coordinates of maximum Psychometric Chroma. See
  >   `XcmsCIELabQueryMaxC'. No client data is necessary.

  > Is color management, thus, an evil which should be persecuted by hordes
  > of crusaders?

The topic is not an evil, but that text is too hard to read.
If it is important to document that point, we should rewrite
it in clear English.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Pankaj Jangid]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> My main problem is the last sentence, which I am not sure if it is
> technical or still part of the joke.
>
>     You can even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the
>     Emacs groups or the sex groups—or both!
>
> The paragraph structure is basically:
>
>  <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
>
> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
> is not understood.

But you have understood the above structure. Then what is the issue?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Pankaj Jangid <pankaj@codeisgreat.org> writes:

>> The paragraph structure is basically:
>>
>>  <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>
>>
>> Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
>> is not understood.
>
> But you have understood the above structure. Then what is the issue?

The issue is that it took an extra effort to understand it. Not because
of technical details, but simply because of presence of jokes.

IMHO, the primary aim of manuals is explaining technical information to
the users. Jokes that help to understand or at least does not hurt are
totally fine. But when jokes makes the information harder to understand,
isn't it against the aim of writing a good manual?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > The paragraph structure is basically:

  >  <technical description><joke><half joke, half technical description>

  > Such structure is difficult to understand, especially if the joke itself
  > is not understood.

Jokes which are hard for many readers to understand
can be frustrating for the readers who can't understand them.
So I think we should insist that jokes be comprehensible.

In other words, don't include jokes whose claim to funniness comes
from crucial links left unstated, stated vaguely, or replaced with
"wink, wink."

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[dick]

I don't think "joke" means what you think it means.  A joke need not be
funny but it does need to at least attempt capturing an irony.  The
literary device used by the Gnus manual is merely whimsy.  In any other
context, the prose used, e.g., "Go wild!", would not raise any eyebrows,
but because it's injected into a technical manual, non-English speakers
mistakenly interpret this as an American's idea of a joke, when in fact
it's just grating ennui.

Now someone who spends 1/7 of his waking hours modifying emacs telling
others to "get a life."  Now that's funny!

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

dick <dick.r.chiang@gmail.com> writes:

[drivel elided]

*plonk*.

Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies
from being recorded on the bug tracker?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>,
>   61325@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:09:28 +0800
> 
> dick <dick.r.chiang@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> [drivel elided]
> 
> *plonk*.
> 
> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies
> from being recorded on the bug tracker?

That's up to Michael, not me.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Michael Albinus]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Eli,

>> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies
>> from being recorded on the bug tracker?
>
> That's up to Michael, not me.

In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next
4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down?

Best regards, Michael.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Cc: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>,  yantar92@posteo.net,
>   dick.r.chiang@gmail.com,  61325@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:11:07 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> Hi Eli,
> 
> >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies
> >> from being recorded on the bug tracker?
> >
> > That's up to Michael, not me.
> 
> In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next
> 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down?

When I said it's up to you, I meant completely up to you.  Whatever
you decide in this case, including doing nothing, is fine by me.  I
have no opinion on this in this case.

Thanks.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Michael Albinus]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

Hi Eli,

>> >> Eli, how far are we from preventing this particular individual's replies
>> >> from being recorded on the bug tracker?
>> >
>> > That's up to Michael, not me.
>>
>> In general, I dislike such filtering. What about to ban him for the next
>> 4 weeks, as warning and as cooling down?
>
> When I said it's up to you, I meant completely up to you.  Whatever
> you decide in this case, including doing nothing, is fine by me.  I
> have no opinion on this in this case.

OK. He knows there's a real option to be banned. Let's see how it goes,
and if he continues to offend people, I'll add him to the filter.

> Thanks.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Akib Azmain Turja via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

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Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> 3.16 Group Topics
>
>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!
>
> I do understand the rest as well.
>
>> Agree. My other points remain. In particular, about joking on sex topic,
>> which is present in the same paragraph.
>
> There are such newsgroups on the Usenet, so why would cracking jokes
> about them be any different from cracking jokes about any other
> newsgroup?
>
> Seriously, anyone who finds that joke offensive needs to grow up and get
> a life!

There are many who are still growing up.  Is GNUS only intended for
adults?  I don't think so.  But still that sex topic included.

However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is
even more offensive (for many):

     Documentation is like sex: when it is good, it is very, very good;
     and when it is bad, it is better than nothing.  —Dick Brandon

Why a few GNU manuals tend to be for adults?

-- 
Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5
Fediverse: akib@hostux.social
Codeberg: akib
emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption."

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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is
  > even more offensive (for many):

I can see how people who feel they are romantic
failures could start to cry on reading that joke,
but I see nothing that is offensive in it.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Akib Azmain Turja via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 820 bytes --]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > However, the text at the very end of the Top node of Texinfo manual is
>   > even more offensive (for many):
>
> I can see how people who feel they are romantic
> failures could start to cry on reading that joke,
> but I see nothing that is offensive in it.

A 13 year would be offended by that quotation, I think.  (At least in my
culture.)

-- 
Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5
Fediverse: akib@hostux.social
Codeberg: akib
emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption."

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

That joke is not particularly funny, and doesn't make an interesting
point.  To delete it would be no great loss.  However, it is not
horrible either.

  > A 13 year would be offended by that quotation, I think.  (At least in my
  > culture.)

That may be true -- I don't know.  But we are not part of your culture
and never agreed to follow its rules.  You and the others who practice
your culture are not entitled to demand obedience from everyone else.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
  > >
  > >    Note:
  > >
  > >      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
  > >      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
  > >      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
  > >      back of her plastic chair.
  > >
  > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
  > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
  > > find this section insulting.

I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
I can't make sense of it at all.

Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?

  > > ‘z’
  > >      Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’).  This doesn’t really exit
  > >      Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer.  I’m not
  > >      sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
  > >
  > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
  > > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.

I find it disparaging to Gnus itself.

If we think some detail of Gnus is somehow problematical, the manual
is the wrong place to say so.  Rather, Gnus developers should take up
the issue and decide whether this behavior is useful or not.  If
useful, explain why; if not, perhaps delete it.

  > >     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
  > >     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
  > >     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
  > >     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
  > >     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
  > >     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!

This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex.
I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny.  This part

           and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
  > >     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.

stereotypes the users and mocks them.  That is likely to make the
readers feel attacked.

We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their
unrelated hgypersensitivities on others.  They are demanding power
which nobody should have.

However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_
are unfriendly to our users.  We should remove those.

  > >     Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
  > >     better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
  > >     something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
  > >     attention!
  > >
  > > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
  > > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
  > > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
  > > make people feel uncomfortable.
  > >
  > > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
  > > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
  > > files on file system?

  > Gnus is a news reader.  Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in
  > its manual are those who read net news.

That's not a kind attitude toward the reader.

                                             Since you don't know what a
  > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that
  > paragraph.

That is very unkind to the reader.  Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled
about important parts of the subject matter.  The manual should _help_
users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose.

I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers
who do not know.  If not, we should add that.

Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference
to that explanation.

So, IS this joke worth keeping?

Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all.  It seems to
be more smirking than funny.

Can anyone explain the intended meaning?  If that is more funny than
the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear.
But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex.
> I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny.  This part

If you replace ``sex'' with, say, ``kayaking'', the meaning of the joke
stays unchanged.

The joke is that it is possible to sort completely unrelated newsgroup
into categories.

>                                              Since you don't know what a
>   > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that
>   > paragraph.
>
> That is very unkind to the reader.  Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled
> about important parts of the subject matter.  The manual should _help_
> users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose.
>
> I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers
> who do not know.  If not, we should add that.

It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files
should be preferred instead.

> Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference
> to that explanation.
>
> So, IS this joke worth keeping?
>
> Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all.  It seems to
> be more smirking than funny.
>
> Can anyone explain the intended meaning?  If that is more funny than
> the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear.
> But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better.

It is trying to make people stop using kill files and use score files
instead, because they are supposed to be better.

I have never used a score file.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2023-02-08 07:50]:
> It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files
> should be preferred instead.

* Overview of verb score

The verb score has 7 senses (first 3 from tagged texts)
1. (18) score, hit, tally, rack up -- (gain points in a game; "The home team scored many times"; "He hit a home run"; "He hit .300 in the past season")
2. (12) score, nock, mark -- (make small marks into the surface of; "score the clay before firing it")
3. (3) score, mark -- (make underscoring marks)
4. score -- (write a musical score for)
5. seduce, score, make -- (induce to have sex; "Harry finally seduced Sally"; "Did you score last night?"; "Harry made Sally")
6. score -- (get a certain number or letter indicating quality or performance; "She scored high on the SAT"; "He scored a 200")
7. grade, score, mark -- (assign a grade or rank to, according to one's evaluation; "grade tests"; "score the SAT essays"; "mark homework")

I totally got why scoring is preferred over killing. 😀n

I am not really "grown up" despite the age, so it's easy to get the
double meaning of it. Do you get it Po Lu?

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex.
>> I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny.  This part
>
> If you replace ``sex'' with, say, ``kayaking'', the meaning of the joke
> stays unchanged.

Will it be ok to do such replacement?

> The joke is that it is possible to sort completely unrelated newsgroup
> into categories.

This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I
did not get this information while reading because I did not understand
the joke. 

>> I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers
>> who do not know.  If not, we should add that.
>
> It explains both what kill and score files are, and why score files
> should be preferred instead.

May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
kill files are?

I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mean:

    8.13 Kill Files
    ===============
    
    Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
    entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
    Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Will it be ok to do such replacement?

That's Lars' call, not mine.

> This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I
> did not get this information while reading because I did not understand
> the joke. 

Maybe you need to spend some time on the Usenet?

> May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
> kill files are?
>
> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mean:
>
>     8.13 Kill Files
>     ===============
>     
>     Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
>     entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
>     Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.


8.13 Kill Files
===============

Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.

   In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_)
than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill
files into score files.

   Anyway, a kill file is a normal ‘emacs-lisp’ file.  You can put any
forms into this file, which means that you can use kill files as some
sort of primitive hook function to be run on group entry, even though
that isn’t a very good idea.

   Normal kill files look like this:

     (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen")
     (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding")
     (gnus-expunge "X")

   This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the
marked articles from the summary buffer.  Very useful, you’ll agree.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Did you read this section or not?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

>> This sounds like a technical information being encoded into the joke. I
>> did not get this information while reading because I did not understand
>> the joke. 
>
> Maybe you need to spend some time on the Usenet?

Why would I? For me, Gnus is first and foremost an email/rss reader. I
am not interested in Usenet. I use scoring for reading rss feeds, not
Usenet.

>> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mean:
>>
>>     8.13 Kill Files
>>     ===============
>>     
>>     Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
>>     entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
>>     Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.
> ...
>    Normal kill files look like this:
>
>      (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen")
>      (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding")
>      (gnus-expunge "X")
>
>    This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the
> marked articles from the summary buffer.  Very useful, you’ll agree.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Did you read this section or not?

I did but I still don't understand what "kill file" means.
Is it for marking articles read? Deleting articles from summary buffer?
Something else?

The text before the paragraph you underlined is saying that kill files
are like hooks, which makes things even more confusing. Why not making
it a simple hook then?

Then, the manual says that  "Other programs use a totally different kill
file syntax". So, Gnus kill files are different from normal? What about
"Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files"? There is no
explanation what "pesky old kill files" mean despite multiple references
where I am supposed to know this a-priori.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2023-02-15 17:49]:
> 
> May you please point me to the place in Gnus manual that explains what
> kill files are?
> 
> I only found the following, but there is no explanation what kill files mean:
> 
>     8.13 Kill Files
>     ===============
>     
>     Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
>     entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
>     Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.

Ask Internet.

Kill file - Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
	
This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
Find sources: "Kill file" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (September 2015) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)

A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to ignore the person or subject in other media.

Kill files were first implemented in Larry Wall's rn. Sometimes more than one kill file will be used. Some newsreader programs also allow the user to specify a time period to keep an author in the kill file.

Web-based forums, including at least some web-based Usenet portals, often have a similar but usually simpler feature called an ignore list, which hides any posts by a specific user, though typically without the ability to ignore posts for reasons other than the username of origin.

More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down, with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader) only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined threshold. For example, articles might be score killed iff they violate too many low-weighted stylistic rules (e.g. containing too many capital letters or too little punctuation, implying an annoying reading experience), or only one or two highly-weighted rules (such as the body containing objectionable keywords or the origin being a known source of spam).[1] 

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used
  > by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some
  > unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header
  > lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that
  > person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the
  > future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to
  > ignore the person or subject in other media.

I see.  But the manual has to tell the reader this, if it mentions
kill files at all.

  > More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a
  > more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score
  > files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily
  > complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down,
  > with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader)
  > only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined
  > threshold.

That seems like a useful feature.  But the GNUS manual has to explain it.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > A kill file (also killfile, bozo bin or twit list) is a file used
>   > by some Usenet reading programs to discard articles matching some
>   > unwanted patterns of subject, author, or other header
>   > lines. Adding a person or subject to one's kill file means that
>   > person or topic will be ignored by one's newsreader in the
>   > future. By extension, the term may be used for a decision to
>   > ignore the person or subject in other media.
>
> I see.  But the manual has to tell the reader this, if it mentions
> kill files at all.
>
>   > More advanced newsreader software like Gnus sometimes provides a
>   > more sophisticated form of filter known as scoring, where score
>   > files are maintained which use fuzzy logic to apply arbitrarily
>   > complex overlapping sets of rules to score articles up or down,
>   > with articles being properly killed (ignored by the newsreader)
>   > only when their weighted score drops below a user-defined
>   > threshold.
>
> That seems like a useful feature.  But the GNUS manual has to explain it.

And, it does...

8.13 Kill Files
===============

Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.

   In short, kill processing is a lot slower (and I do mean _a lot_)
than score processing, so it might be a good idea to rewrite your kill
files into score files.

   Anyway, a kill file is a normal ‘emacs-lisp’ file.  You can put any
forms into this file, which means that you can use kill files as some
sort of primitive hook function to be run on group entry, even though
that isn’t a very good idea.

   Normal kill files look like this:

     (gnus-kill "From" "Lars Ingebrigtsen")
     (gnus-kill "Subject" "ding")
     (gnus-expunge "X")

   This will mark every article written by me as read, and remove the
marked articles from the summary buffer.  Very useful, you’ll agree.

   Other programs use a totally different kill file syntax.  If Gnus
encounters what looks like a ‘rn’ kill file, it will take a stab at
interpreting it.

   Two summary functions for editing a GNUS kill file:

‘M-k’
     Edit this group’s kill file (‘gnus-summary-edit-local-kill’).

‘M-K’
     Edit the general kill file (‘gnus-summary-edit-global-kill’).

   Two group mode functions for editing the kill files:

‘M-k’
     Edit this group’s kill file (‘gnus-group-edit-local-kill’).

‘M-K’
     Edit the general kill file (‘gnus-group-edit-global-kill’).

   Kill file variables:

‘gnus-kill-file-name’
     A kill file for the group ‘soc.motss’ is normally called
     ‘soc.motss.KILL’.  The suffix appended to the group name to get
     this file name is detailed by the ‘gnus-kill-file-name’ variable.
     The “global” kill file (not in the score file sense of “global”, of
     course) is just called ‘KILL’.

‘gnus-kill-save-kill-file’
     If this variable is non-‘nil’, Gnus will save the kill file after
     processing, which is necessary if you use expiring kills.

‘gnus-apply-kill-hook’
     A hook called to apply kill files to a group.  It is
     ‘(gnus-apply-kill-file)’ by default.  If you want to ignore the
     kill file if you have a score file for the same group, you can set
     this hook to ‘(gnus-apply-kill-file-unless-scored)’.  If you don’t
     want kill files to be processed, you should set this variable to
     ‘nil’.

‘gnus-kill-file-mode-hook’
     A hook called in kill-file mode buffers.


8.4 Score File Format
=====================

A score file is an ‘emacs-lisp’ file that normally contains just a
single form.  Casual users are not expected to edit these files;
everything can be changed from the summary buffer.

   Anyway, if you’d like to dig into it yourself, here’s an example:

     (("from"
       ("Lars Ingebrigtsen" -10000)
       ("Per Abrahamsen")
       ("larsi\\|lmi" -50000 nil R))
      ("subject"
       ("Ding is Badd" nil 728373))
      ("xref"
       ("alt.politics" -1000 728372 s))
      ("lines"
       (2 -100 nil <))
      (mark 0)
      (expunge -1000)
      (mark-and-expunge -10)
      (read-only nil)
      (orphan -10)
      (adapt t)
      (files "/hom/larsi/News/gnu.SCORE")
      (exclude-files "all.SCORE")
      (local (gnus-newsgroup-auto-expire t)
             (gnus-summary-make-false-root empty))
      (eval (ding)))

   This example demonstrates most score file elements.  *Note Advanced
Scoring::, for a different approach.

   Even though this looks much like Lisp code, nothing here is actually
‘eval’ed.  The Lisp reader is used to read this form, though, so it has
to be valid syntactically, if not semantically.

   Six keys are supported by this alist:

‘STRING’
     If the key is a string, it is the name of the header to perform the
     match on.  Scoring can only be performed on these eight headers:
     ‘From’, ‘Subject’, ‘References’, ‘Message-ID’, ‘Xref’, ‘Lines’,
     ‘Chars’ and ‘Date’.  In addition to these headers, there are three
     strings to tell Gnus to fetch the entire article and do the match
     on larger parts of the article: ‘Body’ will perform the match on
     the body of the article, ‘Head’ will perform the match on the head
     of the article, and ‘All’ will perform the match on the entire
     article.  Note that using any of these last three keys will slow
     down group entry _considerably_.  The final “header” you can score
     on is ‘Followup’.  These score entries will result in new score
     entries being added for all follow-ups to articles that matches
     these score entries.

     Following this key is an arbitrary number of score entries, where
     each score entry has one to four elements.

       1. The first element is the “match element”.  On most headers
          this will be a string, but on the Lines and Chars headers,
          this must be an integer.

       2. If the second element is present, it should be a number—the
          “score element”.  This number should be an integer in the
          neginf to posinf interval.  This number is added to the score
          of the article if the match is successful.  If this element is
          not present, the ‘gnus-score-interactive-default-score’ number
          will be used instead.  This is 1000 by default.

       3. If the third element is present, it should be a number—the
          “date element”.  This date says when the last time this score
          entry matched, which provides a mechanism for expiring the
          score entries.  It this element is not present, the score
          entry is permanent.  The date is represented by the number of
          days since December 31, 1 BCE.

       4. If the fourth element is present, it should be a symbol—the
          “type element”.  This element specifies what function should
          be used to see whether this score entry matches the article.
          What match types that can be used depends on what header you
          wish to perform the match on.

          “From, Subject, References, Xref, Message-ID”
               For most header types, there are the ‘r’ and ‘R’
               (regexp), as well as ‘s’ and ‘S’ (substring) types, and
               ‘e’ and ‘E’ (exact match), and ‘w’ (word match) types.
               If this element is not present, Gnus will assume that
               substring matching should be used.  ‘R’, ‘S’, and ‘E’
               differ from the others in that the matches will be done
               in a case-sensitive manner.  All these one-letter types
               are really just abbreviations for the ‘regexp’, ‘string’,
               ‘exact’, and ‘word’ types, which you can use instead, if
               you feel like.

          “Extra”
               Just as for the standard string overview headers, if you
               are using gnus-extra-headers, you can score on these
               headers’ values.  In this case, there is a 5th element in
               the score entry, being the name of the header to be
               scored.  The following entry is useful in your
               ‘all.SCORE’ file in case of spam attacks from a single
               origin host, if your NNTP server tracks
               ‘NNTP-Posting-Host’ in overviews:

                    ("111.222.333.444" -1000 nil s
                     "NNTP-Posting-Host")

          “Lines, Chars”
               These two headers use different match types: ‘<’, ‘>’,
               ‘=’, ‘>=’ and ‘<=’.

               These predicates are true if

                    (PREDICATE HEADER MATCH)

               evaluates to non-‘nil’.  For instance, the advanced match
               ‘("lines" 4 <)’ (*note Advanced Scoring::) will result in
               the following form:

                    (< header-value 4)

               Or to put it another way: When using ‘<’ on ‘Lines’ with
               4 as the match, we get the score added if the article has
               less than 4 lines.  (It’s easy to get confused and think
               it’s the other way around.  But it’s not.  I think.)

               When matching on ‘Lines’, be careful because some back
               ends (like ‘nndir’) do not generate ‘Lines’ header, so
               every article ends up being marked as having 0 lines.
               This can lead to strange results if you happen to lower
               score of the articles with few lines.

          “Date”
               For the Date header we have three kinda silly match
               types: ‘before’, ‘at’ and ‘after’.  I can’t really
               imagine this ever being useful, but, like, it would feel
               kinda silly not to provide this function.  Just in case.
               You never know.  Better safe than sorry.  Once burnt,
               twice shy.  Don’t judge a book by its cover.  Never not
               have sex on a first date.  (I have been told that at
               least one person, and I quote, “found this function
               indispensable”, however.)

               A more useful match type is ‘regexp’.  With it, you can
               match the date string using a regular expression.  The
               date is normalized to ISO8601 compact format
               first—YYYYMMDD‘T’HHMMSS.  If you want to match all
               articles that have been posted on April 1st in every
               year, you could use ‘....0401.........’ as a match
               string, for instance.  (Note that the date is kept in its
               original time zone, so this will match articles that were
               posted when it was April 1st where the article was posted
               from.  Time zones are such wholesome fun for the whole
               family, eh?)

               Finally, two actually useful match types for dates: ‘<’
               and ‘>’.  These will allow scoring on the relative age
               (in days) of the articles.  Here’s an example score file
               using the method:

                    (("date"
                      (7 10 nil <)
                      (7 -10 nil >)
                      (14 -10 nil >)))

               This results in articles less than a week old getting a
               10 point increase, articles older than a week getting a
               10 point decrease, and articles older than two weeks
               getting a cumulative 20 point decrease.

               The day can also be a floating point number: To score
               articles less than an hour old, you can say ‘(0.04 10 nil
               <)’.

          “Head, Body, All”
               These three match keys use the same match types as the
               ‘From’ (etc.) header uses.

          “Followup”
               This match key is somewhat special, in that it will match
               the ‘From’ header, and affect the score of not only the
               matching articles, but also all followups to the matching
               articles.  This allows you to increase the score of
               followups to your own articles, or decrease the score of
               followups to the articles of some known trouble-maker.
               Uses the same match types as the ‘From’ header uses.
               (Using this match key will lead to creation of ‘ADAPT’
               files.)

          “Thread”
               This match key works along the same lines as the
               ‘Followup’ match key.  If you say that you want to score
               on a (sub-)thread started by an article with a
               ‘Message-ID’ X, then you add a ‘thread’ match.  This will
               add a new ‘thread’ match for each article that has X in
               its ‘References’ header.  (These new ‘thread’ matches
               will use the ‘Message-ID’s of these matching articles.)
               This will ensure that you can raise/lower the score of an
               entire thread, even though some articles in the thread
               may not have complete ‘References’ headers.  Note that
               using this may lead to nondeterministic scores of the
               articles in the thread.  (Using this match key will lead
               to creation of ‘ADAPT’ files.)

‘score-fn’
     The value of this entry should be one or more user-defined function
     names in parentheses.  Each function will be called in order and
     the returned value is required to be an integer.

          (score-fn (custom-scoring))

     The user-defined function is called with an association list with
     the keys ‘number subject from date id refs chars lines xref extra’
     followed by the article’s score before the function is run.

     The following (somewhat contrived) example shows how to use a
     user-defined function that increases an article’s score by 10 if
     the year of the article’s date is also mentioned in its subject.

          (defun custom-scoring (article-alist score)
            (let ((subject (cdr (assoc 'subject article-alist)))
                  (date (cdr (assoc 'date article-alist))))
              (if (string-match (number-to-string
                                 (nth 5 (parse-time-string date)))
                                subject)
                  10)))

     ‘score-fn’ entries are permanent and can only be added or modified
     directly in the ‘SCORE’ file.

‘mark’
     The value of this entry should be a number.  Any articles with a
     score lower than this number will be marked as read.

‘expunge’
     The value of this entry should be a number.  Any articles with a
     score lower than this number will be removed from the summary
     buffer.

‘mark-and-expunge’
     The value of this entry should be a number.  Any articles with a
     score lower than this number will be marked as read and removed
     from the summary buffer.

‘thread-mark-and-expunge’
     The value of this entry should be a number.  All articles that
     belong to a thread that has a total score below this number will be
     marked as read and removed from the summary buffer.
     ‘gnus-thread-score-function’ says how to compute the total score
     for a thread.

‘files’
     The value of this entry should be any number of file names.  These
     files are assumed to be score files as well, and will be loaded the
     same way this one was.

‘exclude-files’
     The clue of this entry should be any number of files.  These files
     will not be loaded, even though they would normally be so, for some
     reason or other.

‘eval’
     The value of this entry will be ‘eval’ed.  This element will be
     ignored when handling global score files.

‘read-only’
     Read-only score files will not be updated or saved.  Global score
     files should feature this atom (*note Global Score Files::).
     (Note: “Global” here really means “global”; not your personal
     apply-to-all-groups score files.)

‘orphan’
     The value of this entry should be a number.  Articles that do not
     have parents will get this number added to their scores.  Imagine
     you follow some high-volume newsgroup, like ‘comp.lang.c’.  Most
     likely you will only follow a few of the threads, also want to see
     any new threads.

     You can do this with the following two score file entries:

                  (orphan -500)
                  (mark-and-expunge -100)

     When you enter the group the first time, you will only see the new
     threads.  You then raise the score of the threads that you find
     interesting (with ‘I T’ or ‘I S’), and ignore (‘c y’) the rest.
     Next time you enter the group, you will see new articles in the
     interesting threads, plus any new threads.

     I.e., the orphan score atom is for high-volume groups where a few
     interesting threads which can’t be found automatically by ordinary
     scoring rules exist.

‘adapt’
     This entry controls the adaptive scoring.  If it is ‘t’, the
     default adaptive scoring rules will be used.  If it is ‘ignore’, no
     adaptive scoring will be performed on this group.  If it is a list,
     this list will be used as the adaptive scoring rules.  If it isn’t
     present, or is something other than ‘t’ or ‘ignore’, the default
     adaptive scoring rules will be used.  If you want to use adaptive
     scoring on most groups, you’d set ‘gnus-use-adaptive-scoring’ to
     ‘t’, and insert an ‘(adapt ignore)’ in the groups where you do not
     want adaptive scoring.  If you only want adaptive scoring in a few
     groups, you’d set ‘gnus-use-adaptive-scoring’ to ‘nil’, and insert
     ‘(adapt t)’ in the score files of the groups where you want it.

‘adapt-file’
     All adaptive score entries will go to the file named by this entry.
     It will also be applied when entering the group.  This atom might
     be handy if you want to adapt on several groups at once, using the
     same adaptive file for a number of groups.

‘local’
     The value of this entry should be a list of ‘(VAR VALUE)’ pairs.
     Each VAR will be made buffer-local to the current summary buffer,
     and set to the value specified.  This is a convenient, if somewhat
     strange, way of setting variables in some groups if you don’t like
     hooks much.  Note that the VALUE won’t be evaluated.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > That seems like a useful feature.  But the GNUS manual has to explain it.

  > And, it does...

  > 8.13 Kill Files
  > ===============

  > Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
  > entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
  > Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.

That section gives full documentation of the kill file feature,
but the text with the joke doesn't say anything about it.
So that section still has the problem I complained about,
of using a term that has not been explained.

That section ought to have a sentence saying what kill files do,
with an xref to the Kill Files node.

Can someone please write that small fix?

  > 8.4 Score File Format
  > =====================

  > A score file is an ‘emacs-lisp’ file that normally contains just a
  > single form.  Casual users are not expected to edit these files;
  > everything can be changed from the summary buffer.

The most important documentation for score files
is how to use the score feature.  Does the GNUS manual
have that?

If it already has good documentation of using that feature, there is
no need to write it over again.  But the section with the joke needs
to have a sentence or two saying what scores and score files do,
plus a cross reference to the explanation of how to use them.

Can someone please write that small fix?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > > That seems like a useful feature.  But the GNUS manual has to explain it.
>
>   > And, it does...
>
>   > 8.13 Kill Files
>   > ===============
>
>   > Gnus still supports those pesky old kill files.  In fact, the kill file
>   > entries can now be expiring, which is something I wrote before Daniel
>   > Quinlan thought of doing score files, so I’ve left the code in there.
>
> That section gives full documentation of the kill file feature,
> but the text with the joke doesn't say anything about it.
> So that section still has the problem I complained about,
> of using a term that has not been explained.
>
> That section ought to have a sentence saying what kill files do,
> with an xref to the Kill Files node.
>
> Can someone please write that small fix?
>
>   > 8.4 Score File Format
>   > =====================
>
>   > A score file is an ‘emacs-lisp’ file that normally contains just a
>   > single form.  Casual users are not expected to edit these files;
>   > everything can be changed from the summary buffer.
>
> The most important documentation for score files
> is how to use the score feature.  Does the GNUS manual
> have that?
>
> If it already has good documentation of using that feature, there is
> no need to write it over again.  But the section with the joke needs
> to have a sentence or two saying what scores and score files do,
> plus a cross reference to the explanation of how to use them.
>
> Can someone please write that small fix?

Here.  The node with the joke is where score files are explained, and
there is documentation on how they are used.

diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index 486171a080a..677a552d135 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -19808,10 +19808,10 @@ Scoring
 @chapter Scoring
 @cindex scoring
 
-Other people use @dfn{kill files}, but we here at Gnus Towers like
-scoring better than killing, so we'd rather switch than fight.  They do
-something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
-attention!
+Other people use kill files (@pxref{Kill Files}), but we here at Gnus
+Towers like scoring better than killing, so we'd rather switch than
+fight.  They do something completely different as well, so sit up
+straight and pay attention!
 
 @vindex gnus-summary-mark-below
 All articles have a default score (@code{gnus-summary-default-score}),

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

  > +Other people use kill files (@pxref{Kill Files}), but we here at Gnus
  > +Towers like scoring better than killing, so we'd rather switch than
  > +fight.  They do something completely different as well, so sit up
  > +straight and pay attention!

That fixes the immediate problem.  Thanks.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[dick]

I trust everyone here can acknowledge Gnus had long ago reached a
terminal state, and that new readers of the manual are more interested
in 1990s netspeak than actually using the software.  As you readily
note, the manual is worthless for the latter's purpose.  Gnusers
worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this.

I also trust everyone can see we're critiquing the equivalent of a five
year-old's clay ashtray as if it were a Confederate monument, which I
grant you is welcome respite from purposelessness and childlessness, but
nothing to build a head of steam about!

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Akib Azmain Turja via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1081 bytes --]

dick <dick.r.chiang@gmail.com> writes:

> I trust everyone here can acknowledge Gnus had long ago reached a
> terminal state, and that new readers of the manual are more interested
> in 1990s netspeak than actually using the software.  As you readily
> note, the manual is worthless for the latter's purpose.  Gnusers
> worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this.

+1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies.  I learned mostly by
experimenting (and often breaking Emacs) and other internet resources.

>
> I also trust everyone can see we're critiquing the equivalent of a five
> year-old's clay ashtray as if it were a Confederate monument, which I
> grant you is welcome respite from purposelessness and childlessness, but
> nothing to build a head of steam about!

Somehow, the Gnus manual seems to me less as a serious manual and more
as a literature text.

-- 
Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5
Fediverse: akib@hostux.social
Codeberg: akib
emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption."

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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[dick]

>>>>> Akib Azmain Turja <akib@disroot.org> writes:
>> Gnusers worldwide, all 12 of us, have long known this.

> +1, the manual is mostly useless for newbies.

Correction: all 13 of us.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>   > >
>   > >    Note:
>   > >
>   > >      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
>   > >      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
>   > >      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
>   > >      back of her plastic chair.
>   > >
>   > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
>   > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
>   > > find this section insulting.
>
> I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.

Upon checking again with the person who initially reported the issue
with this particular note, I found that the part about insulting was
rather theoretical. The argument was that someone who had bad
experiences with bullying might feel insulted.

I now find such argument insufficient to call the note insulting.

It is not the only problem with this note though.

> I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
> I can't make sense of it at all.

I had the same feeling upon reading section 3.15.

Now, when it was pointed that this is supposed to be a joke, I can see
that it is trying to play around the concept of "suspend".

> We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their
> unrelated hgypersensitivities on others.  They are demanding power
> which nobody should have.

I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics,
like sex, races, politics, etc? If such a topic must be mentioned as a
part of technical description, I see no problem with mentioning such
topics out of necessity. However, jokes in the manual are supposed to
either raise positive feelings or at least be neutral. If we know in
advance that a significant number of people will be annoyed by certain
kinds of jokes, are such jokes worth it?

> However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_
> are unfriendly to our users.  We should remove those.

May you elaborate? Reading the manual is a part of using Gnus. Or do you
mean that statements deliberately attacking/mocking people who use Gnus
(or certain parts/functions in Gnus) should be avoided?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics,
> like sex, races, politics, etc? If such a topic must be mentioned as a
> part of technical description, I see no problem with mentioning such
> topics out of necessity. However, jokes in the manual are supposed to
> either raise positive feelings or at least be neutral. If we know in
> advance that a significant number of people will be annoyed by certain
> kinds of jokes, are such jokes worth it?

Where are the jokes about politics or race in Emacs documentation?

Anyway, people who find such jokes offensive, instead of taking them in
good humor, are not a ``significant number of people''.  They are just
very loud.

We never did agree to follow their rules.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Where are the jokes about politics or race in Emacs documentation?

No. I am asking it in more general context. Trying to align my
understanding of acceptable and not acceptable jokes.

There is a lot of disagreement in the interpretation as we can see, so
it would be useful to arrive at a common ground. Ideally, adding the
official stance to FSF maintenance policies, to the already existing
section on humour.

> Anyway, people who find such jokes offensive, instead of taking them in
> good humor, are not a ``significant number of people''.  They are just
> very loud.

In my question, I specifically emphasized that I am talking about topics
sensitive for large groups of people - whole cultures.

> We never did agree to follow their rules.

I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the
manuals. At least to some degree.

<https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html>:

    Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities
    or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that
    group, ...

    ...

    If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas,
    please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express
    the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more
    likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary
    things.

I think that the above two guidelines can be applied to some of the
discussed jokes.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > We never did agree to follow their rules.

  > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the
  > manuals. At least to some degree.

Yss, they do.

The points in the Kind Communication Guidelines are not rules -- they
don't draw precise lines.  They are guidelines to apply, and how to
apply them is a matter of judgment.  We should never write anything to
offend a demographic group.  But when someone takes offense where no
offense was intended, we have to judge the issue by its specifics.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1395 bytes --]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the
>   > manuals. At least to some degree.
>
> Yss, they do.
>
> The points in the Kind Communication Guidelines are not rules -- they
> don't draw precise lines.  They are guidelines to apply, and how to
> apply them is a matter of judgment.  We should never write anything to
> offend a demographic group.  But when someone takes offense where no
> offense was intended, we have to judge the issue by its specifics.

Makes sense indeed. At least for the first guideline I quoted.

What about the second one?

	 If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas,
	 please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express
	 the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more
	 likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary
	 things.

This bug report started by a report from a user complaining about 3
specific sections of Gnus manual (Note in 3.15 Exiting Gnus, sex joke in
3.16 Group Topics, and sex joke in 8 Scoring).

While removing the problematic parts is not something we have to do
(they clearly mean no offence), what about rewriting them in such a way
that sex topic is avoided and yet the jokes are retained.

I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten
using different terms.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: 0001-doc-misc-gnus.texi-change-text-to-more-neutral-inclu.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 6713 bytes --]

From 21303f2838c9cd57c30086bf68b7a0f1b19b537e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Yuu Yin <yuuyin@protonmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 23:27:19 +0000
Subject: [PATCH] doc/misc/gnus.texi: change text to more neutral/inclusive
 language

Explicit or implicit sexual language is potentially unwelcoming,
unsafe, and/or offensive to some people. Also unecessarily distractful.
---
 doc/misc/gnus.texi | 72 +++++++++++++++++++++-------------------------
 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+), 40 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index 1769b70c9bc..0b23f2c5c01 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -3868,11 +3868,10 @@ plastic chair.
 @cindex topics
 
 If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
-them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
-here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
-you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
-even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
-groups or the sex groups---or both!  Go wild!
+them hierarchically according to topics.  For example, you can Emacs
+groups at a specific topic and other groups in a misc section.  You
+can even group the blessed Emacs groups as a sub-topic to either the
+Emacs groups or the misc groups---or both!
 
 @iftex
 @iflatex
@@ -3889,9 +3888,10 @@ Gnus
   Emacs -- I wuw it!
      3: comp.emacs
      2: alt.religion.emacs
-    Naughty Emacs
-     452: alt.sex.emacs
-       0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
+    Blessed Emacs
+     240: alt.space.emacs
+     247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor
+     530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly
   Misc
      8: comp.binaries.fractals
     13: comp.sources.unix
@@ -4289,9 +4289,10 @@ Gnus
   Emacs -- I wuw it!
      3: comp.emacs
      2: alt.religion.emacs
-    Naughty Emacs
-     452: alt.sex.emacs
-       0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
+    Blessed Emacs
+     240: alt.space.emacs
+     247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor
+     530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly
   Misc
      8: comp.binaries.fractals
     13: comp.sources.unix
@@ -4306,7 +4307,7 @@ follows:
 @lisp
 (("Gnus" visible)
  (("Emacs -- I wuw it!" visible)
-  (("Naughty Emacs" visible)))
+  (("Blessed Emacs" visible)))
  (("Misc" visible)))
 @end lisp
 
@@ -4360,14 +4361,11 @@ Gnus
   Emacs
      3: comp.emacs
      2: alt.religion.emacs
-   452: alt.sex.emacs
     Relief
-     452: alt.sex.emacs
-       0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
+     26984: gnu.emacs.bug
   Misc
      8: comp.binaries.fractals
     13: comp.sources.unix
-   452: alt.sex.emacs
 @end group
 @end example
 
@@ -4378,7 +4376,7 @@ topic parameter @code{(score-file . "emacs.SCORE")}.  In addition,
 @* @samp{alt.religion.emacs} has the group parameter @code{(score-file
 . "religion.SCORE")}.
 
-Now, when you enter @samp{alt.sex.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
+Now, when you enter @samp{gnu.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
 will get the @file{relief.SCORE} home score file.  If you enter the same
 group in the @samp{Emacs} topic, you'll get the @file{emacs.SCORE} home
 score file.  If you enter the group @samp{alt.religion.emacs}, you'll
@@ -11900,9 +11898,9 @@ while people stand around yawning.
 @acronym{MIME}, however, is a standard for encoding your articles, aimlessly,
 while all newsreaders die of fear.
 
-@acronym{MIME} may specify what character set the article uses, the encoding
-of the characters, and it also makes it possible to embed pictures and
-other naughty stuff in innocent-looking articles.
+@acronym{MIME} may specify what character set the article uses, the
+encoding of the characters, and it also makes it possible to embed
+pictures in articles.
 
 @vindex gnus-display-mime-function
 @findex gnus-display-mime
@@ -18213,22 +18211,21 @@ Here is a typical scenario:
 
 @itemize @bullet
 @item
-You've got a date with Andy Mc Dowell or Bruce Willis (select according
-to your sexual preference) in one month.  You don't want to forget it.
+You've got a space flight in one month.  You don't want to forget it.
 @item
 So you send a ``reminder'' message (actually, a diary one) to yourself.
 @item
 You forget all about it and keep on getting and reading new mail, as usual.
 @item
-From time to time, as you type @kbd{g} in the group buffer and as the date
-is getting closer, the message will pop up again to remind you of your
-appointment, just as if it were new and unread.
+From time to time, as you type @kbd{g} in the group buffer and as the
+flight is getting closer, the message will pop up again to remind you
+of your appointment, just as if it were new and unread.
 @item
 Read your ``new'' messages, this one included, and start dreaming again
 of the night you're gonna have.
 @item
-Once the date is over (you actually fell asleep just after dinner), the
-message will be automatically deleted if it is marked as expirable.
+Once the flight is over, the message will be automatically deleted if
+it is marked as expirable.
 @end itemize
 
 The Gnus Diary back end has the ability to handle regular appointments
@@ -20476,13 +20473,8 @@ up being marked as having 0 lines.  This can lead to strange results if
 you happen to lower score of the articles with few lines.
 
 @item Date
-For the Date header we have three kinda silly match types:
-@code{before}, @code{at} and @code{after}.  I can't really imagine this
-ever being useful, but, like, it would feel kinda silly not to provide
-this function.  Just in case.  You never know.  Better safe than sorry.
-Once burnt, twice shy.  Don't judge a book by its cover.  Never not have
-sex on a first date.  (I have been told that at least one person, and I
-quote, ``found this function indispensable'', however.)
+For the Date header we have match types:
+@code{before}, @code{at} and @code{after}.
 
 @cindex ISO8601
 @cindex date
@@ -21118,19 +21110,19 @@ That will match newlines, which might lead to, well, The Unknown.  Say
 @section Reverse Scoring
 @cindex reverse scoring
 
-If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Sex with Emacs} in the
-subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put something
-like this in your score file:
+If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Emacs} in the
+subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put
+something like this in your score file:
 
 @lisp
 (("subject"
-  ("Sex with Emacs" 2))
+  ("Emacs" 2))
  (mark 1)
  (expunge 1))
 @end lisp
 
-So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Sex with Emacs} and mark the
-rest as read, and expunge them to boot.
+So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Emacs} and mark the rest
+as read, and expunge them to boot.
 
 
 @node Global Score Files
-- 
2.39.1


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-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Explicit or implicit sexual language is potentially unwelcoming,
> unsafe, and/or offensive to some people. Also unecessarily distractful.


> +     240: alt.space.emacs
> +     247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor
> +     530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly
>    Misc
>       8: comp.binaries.fractals
>      13: comp.sources.unix
> @@ -4289,9 +4289,10 @@ Gnus
>    Emacs -- I wuw it!
>       3: comp.emacs
>       2: alt.religion.emacs
> -    Naughty Emacs
> -     452: alt.sex.emacs
> -       0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
> +    Blessed Emacs
> +     240: alt.space.emacs
> +     247: comp.talk.emacs.doctor
> +     530: comp.talk.emacs.butterfly

I find this offensive to everyone on the Net.  It implies we are
children who need newsgroups named ``butterfly'', and cry at the sight
of the the words ``naughty'' and ``recovery''.

In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion.  Likewise, the
word blessed is offensive to me.

Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change?
If not, why should we cater to you?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 19:01:47 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion.  Likewise, the
> word blessed is offensive to me.
> 
> Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change?
> If not, why should we cater to you?

That's too harsh.  Let's try conducting this uneasy discussion without
being too harsh.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> In my youth, I took part in campaigns against religion.  Likewise, the
> word blessed is offensive to me.
>
> Will you now ``cater'' to me by retracting this change?
> If not, why should we cater to you?

I agree with you that we cannot 100% guarantee that no single reader
will be offended. However, it does not mean that we should have no
boundaries whatsoever about what to talk about in the manual, especially
in jokes, which do not carry essential information for understanding.

On one hand, we don't want to cater every single possible offence (like
text that offends a single person in the world, at extreme).

On the other hand, we probably don't want to joke around universally
disgusting/offending topics as, say, tortures described in details.

The above two are extreme boundaries.

RMS suggested that we must avoid jokes that offends users of the
software described in the manual.

This is another boundary.

I suggest avoiding topics __commonly__ known as sensitive at culture
level.

This is the boundary I propose here.

You example with "blessed" is not something commonly known as offending,
IMHO. "Sex" is.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I agree with you that we cannot 100% guarantee that no single reader
> will be offended. However, it does not mean that we should have no
> boundaries whatsoever about what to talk about in the manual, especially
> in jokes, which do not carry essential information for understanding.
>
> On one hand, we don't want to cater every single possible offence (like
> text that offends a single person in the world, at extreme).
>
> On the other hand, we probably don't want to joke around universally
> disgusting/offending topics as, say, tortures described in details.

I am personally fine with such jokes.  That doesn't mean I approve of
torture, that just means I am not so offended by the mere existence of,
say, alt.torture, that I spend my time trying to erase it from the
internet.

What certain people are trying to do is to turn the world into their
personal echo chamber.  One person who works on GNU software is a
Buddhist.  I am jolly glad that I am not forced to be one as well;
similarly, he is glad that I do not try to impose my religious
viewpoints on to him.

Likewise, people should not force others to adopt their own lists of
offensive words.

> The above two are extreme boundaries.
>
> RMS suggested that we must avoid jokes that offends users of the
> software described in the manual.
>
> This is another boundary.

People who are easily offended will have no use for a newsreader.
Unless, of course, they get their internet service from Time
Warner Cable.

> I suggest avoiding topics __commonly__ known as sensitive at culture
> level.
>
> This is the boundary I propose here.
>
> You example with "blessed" is not something commonly known as offending,
> IMHO. "Sex" is.

Unlike certain self-righteous people who are offended by everything on
the internet, I recognize that ``blessed'' is used outside its religious
context, so if it was not clear from context, I don't actually find it
offensive, irrespective of what I think about religion.

What I do find offensive, as a person, is the implication that we as a
species are so sensitive to certain words that newsgroups must receive
the blessings of politically correct priests to continue to exist in a
manual.  Many people share this viewpoint, certainly more than those who
shout at a harmless joke in a newsreader's manual.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> People who are easily offended will have no use for a newsreader.
> Unless, of course, they get their internet service from Time
> Warner Cable.

I don't think so.

You are probably right about surfing Usenet and Newsgroups. But merely
using a newsreader does not imply that the users are going to be exposed
to all the groups. They get to choose which groups to follow.

Using Gnus or learning how to use Gnus should not require _as much_
resilience to offence compared to reading anonymous imageboards and
equivalent newsgroups.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[No Wayman]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1925 bytes --]


I feel like this discussion is easily solved by a technical means.
What we need is an embedded document mark-up language in order for 
documentation authors to formally indicate where they are joking. 
We then define an alist of "harm categories" which users can 
register themselves with.
Before documentation is printed, the "harmfulness coefficient" is 
determined for a particular user. If it is above their 
"harmfulness threshold", we display a less offensive joke (defined 
in a separate, localized user option).

See the attached library, joke.el, which solves 99% of the 
problem.
An example usage:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(defconst joke-test-text
  "A closure is a function that also carries a record of the 
  lexical
environment that existed when the function was defined. When it is 
invoked, any
lexical variable references within its definition use the retained 
lexical
environment. In all other respects, closures behave much like 
ordinary
functions; in particular, they can be called in the same way as 
ordinary
functions. Speaking of which:

<joke>Why did the chicken go to Hell? It wasn't braised 
right.</joke>")

(cl-loop for (subject . categories) in '((timmy  . (agoraphobic 
child))
                                         (rachel . (religious 
                                         vegan)))
         collect (cons subject (apply #'joke-harm-by-category 
         joke-test-text
                                      categories)))

;;((timmy (agoraphobic . 0.0)
;;        (child . 12.043010752688172))
;; (rachel (religious . 12.043010752688172)
;;         (vegan . 12.043010752688172)))
#+end_src

Here we can see 12.04% of the above documentation will offend an 
agoraphobic child, such as Timmy. However, it will be doubly 
offensive to a religious vegan, such as Rachel.

If I don't hear any convincing objections within the next couple 
of hours,
I'll merge to emacs-29 branch.

Thanks.


[-- Attachment #2: joke --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 1861 bytes --]

;;; Joke --- Not a joke. ;; -*- lexical-binding: t; -*-
;;; Commentary:
;; yes.
;;; Code:
(require 'cl-lib)

(defconst joke-harm-categories
  '((("chicken" "cow" "meat")            . vegetarian)
    ((vegetarian "cheese" "milk" "fish") . vegan)
    (("god" "sex" "heaven" "hell")       . religious)
    ((religious "religion")              . atheist)
    (("marketplace")                     . agoraphobic)
    ((".*")                              . child))
  "Lists of categories of people will be offended by jokes on certain topics.")

(defun joke-victims (joke)
  "Return victims of JOKE."
  (cl-loop for (spec . victim) in joke-harm-categories
           for regexps = (flatten-tree
                          (cl-loop for el in spec collect
                                   (if (symbolp el)
                                       (car (rassoc el joke-harm-categories))
                                     el)))
           when (cl-some (lambda (regexp) (string-match-p regexp joke)) regexps)
           collect victim))

(defun joke-jokes (text)
  "Return list of jokes in TEXT."
  (let ((jokes))
    (with-temp-buffer
      (insert text)
      (goto-char (point-min))
      (while (re-search-forward "\\(?:<joke>\\([^z-a]*?\\)</joke>\\)" nil 'noerror)
        (push (match-string 1) jokes))
      (nreverse jokes))))

(defun joke-harm-by-category (text &rest victims)
  "Return percentage of JOKES in TEXT which will harm VICTIMS."
  (cl-loop with jokes = (joke-jokes text)
           for victim in (or victims '(anyone))
           for harmful =
           (cl-remove-if-not (lambda (joke) (member victim (joke-victims joke)))
                             jokes)
           collect (cons victim (* 100 (/ (cl-reduce #'+ harmful :key #'length)
                                          (float (length text)))))))

(provide 'joke)
;;; joke.el ends here

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: No Wayman <iarchivedmywholelife@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2023 15:02:05 -0500
> 
> If I don't hear any convincing objections within the next couple of
> hours, I'll merge to emacs-29 branch.

Thanks, but emacs-29 is definitely not the right place to install
this, even if we decide that we want such a package in Emacs.
Assuming people think this is a good idea, it should go to master.
And please allow at least a week, maybe even two, for people to react
(unless that was an unmarked joke).

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten
> using different terms.

I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
"meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but
keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in
standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty"
(which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by
childish misbehavior").

If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on.

diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index 486171a080a..7d6898bdcea 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ Group Topics

 If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
 them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
-here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
+here, your meme groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
 you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
-even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
-groups or the sex groups---or both!  Go wild!
+even group the Emacs meme groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
+groups or the meme groups---or both!  Go wild!

 @iftex
 @iflatex
@@ -3880,8 +3880,8 @@ Group Topics
   Emacs -- I wuw it!
      3: comp.emacs
      2: alt.religion.emacs
-    Naughty Emacs
-     452: alt.sex.emacs
+    Wayward Emacs
+     452: alt.meme.emacs
        0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
   Misc
      8: comp.binaries.fractals
@@ -4280,8 +4280,8 @@ Topic Topology
   Emacs -- I wuw it!
      3: comp.emacs
      2: alt.religion.emacs
-    Naughty Emacs
-     452: alt.sex.emacs
+    Wayward Emacs
+     452: alt.meme.emacs
        0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
   Misc
      8: comp.binaries.fractals
@@ -4297,7 +4297,7 @@ Topic Topology
 @lisp
 (("Gnus" visible)
  (("Emacs -- I wuw it!" visible)
-  (("Naughty Emacs" visible)))
+  (("Wayward Emacs" visible)))
  (("Misc" visible)))
 @end lisp

@@ -4351,14 +4351,14 @@ Topic Parameters
   Emacs
      3: comp.emacs
      2: alt.religion.emacs
-   452: alt.sex.emacs
+   452: alt.meme.emacs
     Relief
-     452: alt.sex.emacs
+     452: alt.meme.emacs
        0: comp.talk.emacs.recovery
   Misc
      8: comp.binaries.fractals
     13: comp.sources.unix
-   452: alt.sex.emacs
+   452: alt.meme.emacs
 @end group
 @end example

@@ -4369,7 +4369,7 @@ Topic Parameters
 @* @samp{alt.religion.emacs} has the group parameter @code{(score-file
 . "religion.SCORE")}.

-Now, when you enter @samp{alt.sex.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
+Now, when you enter @samp{alt.meme.emacs} in the @samp{Relief} topic, you
 will get the @file{relief.SCORE} home score file.  If you enter the same
 group in the @samp{Emacs} topic, you'll get the @file{emacs.SCORE} home
 score file.  If you enter the group @samp{alt.religion.emacs}, you'll
@@ -21109,18 +21109,18 @@ Reverse Scoring
 @section Reverse Scoring
 @cindex reverse scoring

-If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Sex with Emacs} in the
+If you want to keep just articles that have @samp{Fun with Emacs} in the
 subject header, and expunge all other articles, you could put something
 like this in your score file:

 @lisp
 (("subject"
-  ("Sex with Emacs" 2))
+  ("Fun with Emacs" 2))
  (mark 1)
  (expunge 1))
 @end lisp

-So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Sex with Emacs} and mark the
+So, you raise all articles that match @samp{Fun with Emacs} and mark the
 rest as read, and expunge them to boot.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
> "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but
> keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in
> standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty"
> (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by
> childish misbehavior").
>
> If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on.

The problem with this approach is that alt.sex is a real hierarchy.
``alt.meme'' is not, so it reduces the accuracy of the joke.

Trying to censor this part of the Gnus manual is like trying to censor
the Usenet: it won't work.  It is sad that the unsuccessful attemts at
censorship from important people and organizations, including American
congressmen and major Internet service providers, have been reused by
those pushing modern, for lack of a better phrase, PC rhetoric, against
newsreaders.

One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU
project is the opposition to censorship.  No matter if the demands for
censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the
Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> The problem with this approach is that alt.sex is a real hierarchy.
> ``alt.meme'' is not, so it reduces the accuracy of the joke.

alt.sex.emacs is not a real group either, so there is no "accuracy" to
reduce.  Both groups are made up.

> Trying to censor this part of the Gnus manual is like trying to censor
> the Usenet: it won't work.

Installing the proposed patch has absolutely nothing to do with
censorship, of course.  I don't see how anyone could think that it does.
I suggest removing a couple of words because the jokes are not that
funny, somewhat childish, and arguably distracting to some readers.

Furthermore, of course it will "work".  I install patches in emacs.git
every day, as do you.  But of course we can't change Usenet.  Comparing
Usenet to our git repository is a category error.

> One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU
> project is the opposition to censorship.  No matter if the demands for
> censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the
> Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed.

There is no disagreement about this.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Gregory Heytings]

>
> One of the few standpoints unrelated to free software taken by the GNU 
> project is the opposition to censorship.  No matter if the demands for 
> censorship come from individuals, or if they come from the 
> Communications Decency Act, they must be resolutely opposed.
>

That remark, in this thread about potentially offensive humor, is 
deliciously amusing, coming from someone who a few days ago publicly 
asked, in this same thread, to censor someone who happens to use a kind of 
humor he dislikes (a dark humor a la Louis C.K.) from this mailing list.

FWIW, I've been the direct target of his humor, and never felt offended; 
on the contrary, I found it funny.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org> writes:

> That remark, in this thread about potentially offensive humor, is
> deliciously amusing, coming from someone who a few days ago publicly
> asked, in this same thread, to censor someone who happens to use a
> kind of humor he dislikes (a dark humor a la Louis C.K.) from this
> mailing list.
>
> FWIW, I've been the direct target of his humor, and never felt
> offended; on the contrary, I found it funny.

There is a difference between moderation, which applies to people and
individual mailing lists, and not humor, and censorship imposed by the
CDA and modern PC rhetoric.

The individual you are talking about has also been restricted from
posting to emacs-devel@gnu.org.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > That remark, in this thread about potentially offensive humor, is 
  > deliciously amusing, coming from someone who a few days ago publicly 
  > asked, in this same thread, to censor someone who happens to use a kind of 
  > humor he dislikes (a dark humor a la Louis C.K.) from this mailing list.

There is so much vagueness there that I can't tell who you mean
or what your point is.

What I can tell is that your point is an attack on some person, written
cryptically.

If you disagree with someone in this discussion, please don't turn it
into a personal attack.  Please stick to the topic we are talking
about -- don't change the topic to focus on anyone in this
discussion.

This particular kind of point is generally not very useful.  If two
statements by one person strike you as being somehow opposed to each
other, that doesn't imply they conflict.  Perhaps they do, perhaps
they don't.  It could be that the two statements were stated
imprecisely so that they can be misunderstood as conflicting.

Thus, claiming that the two statements conflict is not helpful for
resolving the issue at hand.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I think that when I wrote the Kind Communication Guidelines, I was
thinking about discussions (like this one).  It asks people to try to
avoid offending anyone else in the discussion.  That is a limited set
of people to be considerate of.

When the same points are applied to a book, which is published, there
is a problem: anyone might read the book.  So it can be interpreted as
saying that the author should make sure not to offend anyone
whosoever.  That implies that every demand for censorship should be
catered to.

That is not a good outcome, and not what I intended.

It looks like I will have to think more about this.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I think that when I wrote the Kind Communication Guidelines, I was
> thinking about discussions (like this one).  It asks people to try to
> avoid offending anyone else in the discussion.  That is a limited set
> of people to be considerate of.

Good point. I agree that it is meaningless if we aim to cater every
possible potential reader of the manual.

> When the same points are applied to a book, which is published, there
> is a problem: anyone might read the book.  So it can be interpreted as
> saying that the author should make sure not to offend anyone
> whosoever.  That implies that every demand for censorship should be
> catered to.
>
> That is not a good outcome, and not what I intended.
>
> It looks like I will have to think more about this.

I am re-reading the GNU-provided information for maintainers on jokes
(https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor) and I note the
following paragraph:

    There are people who frown on anything that is slightly risqué or
    controversial, including jokes. It would be a terrible shame for
    that attitude to prevail, so our policy is that the occasional
    risqué joke is ok. GNU is a 21st century project, not a 19th.

AFAIU, this implies that even occasional jokes about controversial or
culturally-sensitive topics, like sex should be OK to have.

The problem with Gnus manual though is that the number of jokes in it is
huge. And it appears that jokes involving sensitive topics are not
occasional.

So far, the discussion on this thread revolved around all-or-nothing
approach with people often treating this bug report as either a demand
to remove all the jokes or a demand to remove all the sensitive jokes.
Originally, I was aiming to handle only the jokes I listed with an idea
in mind to apply the same approach for all other sensitive jokes.

From my current understanding of the "14 Humor and GNU" section, it will
be incorrect to try removing every single "risky" joke. Though I do not
see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral would hurt,
given that the quality of a joke being changed does not degrade.

What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are
considered occasional? I think that it is something worth clarifying in
https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral
> would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not
> degrade.

Because it amounts to kow-towing in front of the mob of hypersensitive
people.

> What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are
> considered occasional? I think that it is something worth clarifying in
> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor

Whatever the author of the document felt like at the time it was
written, I think.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral
>> would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not
>> degrade.
>
> Because it amounts to kow-towing in front of the mob of hypersensitive
> people.

Why is it a problem?
If we can make the manual accessible to more people (hypersensitive or
not) by a slight adjustment to the joke and without compromising the
quality, why not?
I am not talking about removing every joke.

>> What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are
>> considered occasional? I think that it is something worth clarifying in
>> https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Humor
>
> Whatever the author of the document felt like at the time it was
> written, I think.

My question was to clarify how we should read that document. The end
goal is updating https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html with
the clarification. I assume that RMS is the right person to ask about
such thing.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Why is it a problem?
> If we can make the manual accessible to more people (hypersensitive or
> not) by a slight adjustment to the joke and without compromising the
> quality, why not?
> I am not talking about removing every joke.

We are working against such hypersensitive people, not trying to make
the manual accessible to them.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > We are working against such hypersensitive people, not trying to make
  > the manual accessible to them.

I wouldn't put it so strongly.  We have no wish to make them suffer.
I'd say we are resisting their pressure in a peaceful way.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I wouldn't put it so strongly.  We have no wish to make them suffer.
> I'd say we are resisting their pressure in a peaceful way.

So, can we close this bug now?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Though I do not see why replacing the risky topics with more neutral
  > > would hurt, given that the quality of a joke being changed does not
  > > degrade.

  > Because it amounts to kow-towing in front of the mob of hypersensitive
  > people.

I agree.

If you write a mamual and put no jokes in it, the absence of jokes is
not a bug.  There is no need to add jokes just so there will be some
jokes.

If you write a mamual and put no sex-related jokes in it, the absence
of sex-related jokes is not a bug.  There is no need to add
sex-related jokes just so there will be some.

If you write a manual with some sex-related jokes, and for some
unrelated reason you delete one, deleting it is not a problem.
That particular sex-related joke is not essential for a good manual.

But if we consider a proposel to delete all sex-related jokes because
talking about sex is "offensive", that is not simply proposing a
change in the manual.  It is, in effect, a proposal to establish a
rule against such jokes.  That makes it much more of an issue than
adding or deleting one particular joke.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2023-03-07 16:49]:
> The problem with Gnus manual though is that the number of jokes in it is
> huge. And it appears that jokes involving sensitive topics are not
> occasional.

Statements are too hypothetical, they are making the problem, creating
the problem where there was none in reality.

And participants, IMHO, are acting highly hypothetically, trying to
judge public opinion without really asking public. 

Public relation is about relation to public in plural, and you don't
have that. We heard of anonymous Muslim offended by what? Some sex
jokes? How about first complaining to his country's censorship
department, as they are responsible in the first place to let those
offending words pass through their censorship filters (irony).

Before deciding which joke is appropriate or not or what shall be
removed, one shall ask minimum of 1000 public members. And I believe
participants don't have resources for that, but many like to act as
"public relation officers" by knowing it all how some people would
feel.

There was no real problem. No law broken, nobody was harmed, and there
was no incident of real user trying to use Gnus, only hypothetical
assumptions, no facts.

The real problem could be when specific, named, non-anonymous user
says that user did not understand part of the manual, and does not
know how to use Gnus, but wants to connect to (G)news.

Real problem could be also when there would be continuous
non-anonymous complaints on those jokes in last 2 decades.

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2023-03-07 16:49]:
>> The problem with Gnus manual though is that the number of jokes in it is
>> huge. And it appears that jokes involving sensitive topics are not
>> occasional.
>
> Statements are too hypothetical, they are making the problem, creating
> the problem where there was none in reality.
>
> And participants, IMHO, are acting highly hypothetically, trying to
> judge public opinion without really asking public. 

My statement is based on a concrete person complaining about too many
inappropriate jokes. I also listed the specific jokes in question.

The idea of asking general public has been rejected (see my earlier
message about running a poll). Po Lu argued that such a poll will
represent people overreacting to the jokes disproportionally (they will
tend to participate in the poll more).

So, I tried to fall back to the GNU policy. Which, IMHO should be
slightly clarified. The part about what "occasional joke" refers to.

> Before deciding which joke is appropriate or not or what shall be
> removed, one shall ask minimum of 1000 public members. And I believe
> participants don't have resources for that, but many like to act as
> "public relation officers" by knowing it all how some people would
> feel.

We have. The previous https://emacssurvey.org/ generated over 1000
replies. But see Po Lu's concern.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1078 bytes --]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> My statement is based on a concrete person complaining about too many
> inappropriate jokes. I also listed the specific jokes in question.

If I decode to complain about something absurd, such as perhaps the fact
that your name is Ihor, I will also have become a ``concrete person''
complaining about a specific fact.

Does that make such a complaint reasonable?

> The idea of asking general public has been rejected (see my earlier
> message about running a poll). Po Lu argued that such a poll will
> represent people overreacting to the jokes disproportionally (they will
> tend to participate in the poll more).
>
> So, I tried to fall back to the GNU policy. Which, IMHO should be
> slightly clarified. The part about what "occasional joke" refers to.

The best interpretation is that of time.  In over 25 years, people have
not complained loudly enough to alter those jokes.  I see no reason 2023
should be any different, except maybe that there are more unreasonable
people in 2023.  Here is an example from Emacs 19.34:


[-- Attachment #2: Screenshot from 2023-03-09 09-19-48.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 18402 bytes --]

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2023-03-08 17:12]:
> My statement is based on a concrete person complaining about too many
> inappropriate jokes. I also listed the specific jokes in question.

How is possible to know if that person has no name?

If that person need you as proxy to talk for them, maybe it is all in
the end the joke to create a commotion, and finally laughs.

How do we know that you are transmitting the emotion and feeling in
same manner how it was intended?

> The idea of asking general public has been rejected (see my earlier
> message about running a poll). Po Lu argued that such a poll will
> represent people overreacting to the jokes disproportionally (they
> will tend to participate in the poll more).

You have to step away from that computer and go into people, talk and
make some fun. Come back. 

Or if not that, okay fine, though that sounds too robotic too me, and
no fun.

> So, I tried to fall back to the GNU policy. Which, IMHO should be
> slightly clarified. The part about what "occasional joke" refers to.

> We have. The previous https://emacssurvey.org/ generated over 1000
> replies. But see Po Lu's concern.

1000 replies on what? I cannot find anything related to jokes
there. Your answer is not related.

Get out of that room.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are
  > considered occasional? 

Alas, it is impossible to formulate an exact definition of
"occasional".  That is the nature of the concept.

I think it means that if you feel that you encounter one after another
after another, that's not occasional.  That's the right way to decide
such a question.  Of course, we can't expect all people to judge this
the same way.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are
>   > considered occasional? 
>
> Alas, it is impossible to formulate an exact definition of
> "occasional".  That is the nature of the concept.
>
> I think it means that if you feel that you encounter one after another
> after another, that's not occasional.  That's the right way to decide
> such a question.  Of course, we can't expect all people to judge this
> the same way.

Thanks for the clarification!
It is a bit unsatisfactory, but understandable. Trying to provide a
measurable criterion would likely get such criterion wrong anyway.

WRT this bug report, my understanding is the following:

Just the fact of using a sensitive topic for a joke must not be a reason
to remove it. The only reason would be showing and getting others to
agree that such jokes are numerous across the manual.

What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive
topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change
is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > What is not clear for me is the word "occasional". How many jokes are
>   > considered occasional? 
>
> Alas, it is impossible to formulate an exact definition of
> "occasional".  That is the nature of the concept.
>
> I think it means that if you feel that you encounter one after another
> after another, that's not occasional.  That's the right way to decide
> such a question.  Of course, we can't expect all people to judge this
> the same way.

Thanks for the clarification!
It is a bit unsatisfactory, but understandable. Trying to provide a
measurable criterion would likely get such criterion wrong anyway.

WRT this bug report, my understanding is the following:

Just the fact of using a sensitive topic for a joke must not be a reason
to remove it. The only reason would be showing and getting others to
agree that such jokes are numerous across the manual.

What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive
topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change
is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive
> topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change
> is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted?

Rejected, because we want to set an example of resisting the pressure
from snowflakes who believe their hyper-sensitivities are important
enough to warrant imposition on others.

Throughout the Internet, this seems to be a losing battle, and as a
result more and more software is having the fun taken out of it.  But we
must not allow that battle to be lost in Emacs.

P.S:

Remember the non-GNU anti-social edict that was being pushed about some
time around 3 years ago?  Do you want Emacs to become one of the pieces
of software that have a long list of rules, the sole purpose of which is
to determine which individuals are to be kicked out of the project,
based on whatever an allergic person happens to react to?

Catering to snowflakes is a very slippery slope, which always leads to
that in the end.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: gregory@heytings.org, rms@gnu.org, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  stefankangas@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:06:54 +0800
> From:  Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
> 
> > What is not clear for me is a stance on replacing the jokes on sensitive
> > topic with equivalent jokes on less sensitive topic. Unless such change
> > is making the jokes worse, should it be rejected? Accepted?
> 
> Rejected

That's your opinion.  It is not necessarily what we will do.

What we should and will do is to consider each case separately, and
making a separate decision for each case.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> That's your opinion.

Since Ihor was evidently asking for an opinion (``should it'', rather
than ``will it''), that is what I gave, yes.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2023-03-10 16:10]:
> Remember the non-GNU anti-social edict that was being pushed about some
> time around 3 years ago?

And after all the wrongful accusations they did not take slightest
responsibility to apologize or clarify the case. It was the virtual
mob defamatory lynch.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Drew Adams]

> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
> "meme",

Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
>> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
>> "meme",
>
> Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-)

This is a different case.
"sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in
"10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly
used in the manual itself (as footnote explains).

Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also
well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example.

In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and
refers to the concept of sex.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> This is a different case.
> "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in
> "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly
> used in the manual itself (as footnote explains).
>
> Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also
> well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example.
>
> In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and
> refers to the concept of sex.

It refers to the existence of newsgroups centered around sex.
An irrefutable fact, just like there are newsgroups centered around
Emacs, text editors, torture, and the C Standard.

On the other hand, there are no newsgroups centered around posting
Internet memes.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Michael Albinus]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

Hi Ihor,

> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>
>>> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
>>> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
>>> "meme",
>>
>> Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-)
>
> This is a different case.
> "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in
> "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly
> used in the manual itself (as footnote explains).
>
> Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also
> well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example.
>
> In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and
> refers to the concept of sex.

Could it be that you don't understand *any* joke? Like the one from Drew?

Best regards, Michael.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Could it be that you don't understand *any* joke? Like the one from Drew?

I understood the joke in Drew's email.
However, I see the topic of abbreviations as adding value to the
discussion. Replying with something like ":D" would not add anything.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Drew Adams]

> >> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
> >> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
> >> "meme",
> >
> > Let's not forget to sanitize "sexp" to "memep". ;-)
                                                    ^^^
> This is a different case.
> "sexp" is an abbreviation often used in the code. It is also defined in
> "10.1 Introduction to Evaluation" of Elisp manual, although not commonly
> used in the manual itself (as footnote explains).
> 
> Technical terms are necessary for understanding. They are also
> well-defined in ways clearly unrelated to "sex" in your example.
> 
> In contrast, the topic of sex in the discussed jokes is intentional and
> refers to the concept of sex.

It was meant as a joke.

Which I guess supports the point that jokes
aren't always seen or understood as such.

And they aren't always appreciated as jokes,
even if understood as such.  Humor has a
personal aspect.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> I am attaching a patch from another user with some jokes being rewritten
>> using different terms.
>
> I suggest this alternative and much more minimal patch, which only
> removes the most unnecessary references to "sex" (replacing it with
> "meme", which is what most of the internet is about these days) but
> keeps the reference to something as innocuous as a "date" (which in
> standard American English could mean just having dinner) and "naughty"
> (which according to Merriam-Webster means "engaging in or marked by
> childish misbehavior").
>
> If this is acceptable, I suggest installing this and moving on.
>
> diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> index 486171a080a..7d6898bdcea 100644
> --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ Group Topics
> ...

I have no objections. I also asked the author of the patch I shared and
there are no objections either.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > What about the second one?

  > 	 If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas,
  > 	 please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express
  > 	 the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more
  > 	 likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary
  > 	 things.

This clearly pertains to a discussion between people about what to do,
with some trying to convince others of which solution to adopt.  It doesn't
make sense for a manual.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I assume that GNU kind communication guidelines also apply to the
> manuals. At least to some degree.
>
> <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html>:
>
>     Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities
>     or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that
>     group, ...
>
>     ...
>
>     If other participants complain about the way you express your ideas,
>     please make an effort to cater to them. You can find ways to express
>     the same points while making others more comfortable. You are more
>     likely to persuade others if you don't arouse ire about secondary
>     things.
>
> I think that the above two guidelines can be applied to some of the
> discussed jokes.

Those guidelines are guidelines, not requirements, and do not extend to
unreasonable complaints.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their
  > > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others.  They are demanding power
  > > which nobody should have.

  > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics,
  > like sex, races, politics, etc?

Nowadays there is a fashion for hypersensitivity; whatever the topic.
If you approach within 50 feet, some will say "That's offensively
close."  No one is entitled to that much control over others.

GNU manuals should not insult anyone, not even with a hint, except
perhaps those who attack our freedom, for attacking our freedom.

But we should not have to tiptoe through life lest some hypersensitive
person take offense by association.

  > Or do you
  > mean that statements deliberately attacking/mocking people who use Gnus
  > (or certain parts/functions in Gnus) should be avoided?

That is what I meant.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > > We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their
>   > > unrelated hgypersensitivities on others.  They are demanding power
>   > > which nobody should have.
>
>   > I can see the point, but does it apply to well-known sensitive topics,
>   > like sex, races, politics, etc?
>
> Nowadays there is a fashion for hypersensitivity; whatever the topic.
> If you approach within 50 feet, some will say "That's offensively
> close."  No one is entitled to that much control over others.

I agree in general. However, not following the fashion for
hypersensitivity does not mean doing the opposite-ignoring that fact
that some statements/topics can be sensitive/offensive.

There should be a boundary, albeit not the same with specific country
standards. I proposed the boundary to be the topics well-known to be
sensitive for the whole cultures. Or it can be a different boundary - a
consensus among users across the world.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>   > >
>   > >    Note:
>   > >
>   > >      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
>   > >      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
>   > >      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
>   > >      back of her plastic chair.
>   > >
>   > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
>   > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
>   > > find this section insulting.
>
> I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
> I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
> I can't make sense of it at all.
>
> Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?

Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that
paragraph.  I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise
me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or
even intended meaning of that paragraph is.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:34:02 -0500, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> said:

    Stefan> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
    >> > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
    >> > >
    >> > >    Note:
    >> > >
    >> > >      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
    >> > >      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
    >> > >      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
    >> > >      back of her plastic chair.
    >> > >
    >> > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
    >> > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
    >> > > find this section insulting.
    >> 
    >> I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
    >> I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
    >> I can't make sense of it at all.
    >> 
    >> Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?

    Stefan> Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that
    Stefan> paragraph.  I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise
    Stefan> me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or
    Stefan> even intended meaning of that paragraph is.

<sigh> One of the more enjoyable things in life is reading some of
Larsʼ whimsy in the Gnus manual, which I doubt is meant to be fully
understood. It saddens me that the reaction to it is to remove it.

(and to whoever it was that found that bit insulting, I can only say
"what?!")

Robert
-- 

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > <sigh> One of the more enjoyable things in life is reading some of
  > Larsʼ whimsy in the Gnus manual, which I doubt is meant to be fully
  > understood. It saddens me that the reaction to it is to remove it.

A manual is meant to be understood by the readers it is addressed to.
A musing that people find it hard to follow is fine in a personal
memoir or an artistic work.  If it is in a manual, it gets in the way
of understanding.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> [2023-02-15 18:36]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >   > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> >   > >
> >   > >    Note:
> >   > >
> >   > >      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
> >   > >      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
> >   > >      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
> >   > >      back of her plastic chair.
> >   > >
> >   > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> >   > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> >   > > find this section insulting.
> >
> > I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting.
> > I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny.
> > I can't make sense of it at all.
> >
> > Would someone who understands it please explain the joke?
> 
> Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that
> paragraph.  I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise
> me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or
> even intended meaning of that paragraph is.

Why don't you ask Lars.

For single person's lack of insight, that shall not be deleted.

Especially if you did not live while reading newsgroups.

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Since I also couldn't make heads or tails of it, I deleted that
  > > paragraph.  I guess if someone thinks it's hilarious, they'll chastise
  > > me publicly, and then they can hopefully also explain what the joke or
  > > even intended meaning of that paragraph is.

  > Why don't you ask Lars.

There was no need for the answer to come from him in particular.

  > For single person's lack of insight, that shall not be deleted.

I am not saying that joke should be deleted.  I am saying that the
manual needs to explain its serious points weriously, not just with
jokes.  It needs to what kill files do, and what scoring does,
and how to use them.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Visuwesh]

[திங்கள் பிப்ரவரி 06, 2023] Ihor Radchenko wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8
> Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find
> the style of these sections insulting.
>
> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
> topic.

As a non-native speaker who also read the Gnus manual (except Searching
and the rest), my general sentiment is that it is hard to read it
because of its writing style but I don't agree that every joke hindered
my understanding.
I find it hard to skim through the manual later when I read it like
"regular documentation" due to its writing style so I would be happy to
see a rewrite that tones down the jokes but so far the Info indices have
served me well enough, and Gnus runs smoothly (for me) after the initial
setup anyway so it is not a bother.

> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
>
>    Note:
>
>      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
>      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
>      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
>      back of her plastic chair.
>
> I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> find this section insulting.

I am not sure what this person finds insulting.  I am not sure if you
referred to this when you wrote "female bullying" in another thread, but
what I visualise when I read this is much more innocent and does not
have anything offensive.  OTOH, I do agree this paragraph sticks out and
seemingly serves no useful info.

> Further, the last sentence in
>
> ‘z’
>      Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’).  This doesn’t really exit
>      Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer.  I’m not
>      sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
>
> is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
> is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.

This is yet another dry Gnus humour in my book.

> 3.16 Group Topics
>
>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!
>
> Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic, often
> negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users), I simply feel
> disoriented while trying to read this paragraph. I can understand the
> first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a joke? Or are there useful
> pieces of information coded inside?
>
> After reading this info section, I feel that the amount of attempted
> jokes is larger than the amount of useful information. This is
> distracting (even though I do not mind an occasional joke, personally)

If you replace "sex group" with a language group e.g. "Spanish", does
the paragraph make more sense?  I personally saw the use of "sex group"
as a jab at those who participate in "online sex groups" but I may be
group of course.

> 8 Scoring has
>
>     Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
>     better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
>     something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
>     attention!
>
> For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of
> word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we
> .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that
> make people feel uncomfortable.
>
> Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also
> some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting
> files on file system?

Even without any knowledge about news readers (I was not even born back
then!), I could tell that "kill files" were a way to filter your feed
from the context.  Especially since Emacs already uses the word "kill"
to mean what other applications call "cut" (kill-region) and "delete"
(kill-buffer).  I don't really see a cause for confusion here TBH.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> [2023-02-08 16:44]:
> > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> >
> >    Note:
> >
> >      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
> >      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
> >      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
> >      back of her plastic chair.
> >
> > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user
> > find this section insulting.
> 
> I am not sure what this person finds insulting.  I am not sure if you
> referred to this when you wrote "female bullying" in another thread, but
> what I visualise when I read this is much more innocent and does not
> have anything offensive.  OTOH, I do agree this paragraph sticks out and
> seemingly serves no useful info.

Art is perceived by audience. Every user, every reader, can add to the
author's idea. It may be different to different users.

I get the feeling of what happens when "Exiting Gnus". What is the
stage when you exit the world of reading newsgroups? How does it feel? 

User is in one world "Gnus" or "news", reading newsgroups, it is
specific world where mind is occupied and does not focus on the
environment.

How does it feel when user get out of that news environment?

It is similar as waking up from a dream. It is similar as opening eyes
and seeing something totally different!

It shows the feeling of author contrast of the environment and feeling
of a user as to how it feels when you exit Gnus.

Maybe it is Miss Lisa Cannifax in English class, or plethora of other
variations.

It is awakening.

And Miss Lisa Cannifax helps reader awake to. 

There is message from author right there. I maybe see it, maybe
not. But I see what I feel.

--
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> [2023-02-06 19:03]:
> 3.15 Exiting Gnus has
> 
>    Note:
> 
>      Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet
>      go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy
>      sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the
>      back of her plastic chair.

😆

Come on! It is good we have Info manuals of this type!

A joke need not be joke for person A, can be for person B, can be
dedicated to person C, can be hidden, there are millions of
variations.

Nobody is expected to be literate, or to have sense of humour. 

No joke is for everybody to be accepted or understandable.

> I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what
> information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other
> user find this section insulting.

Haven thanks manual is not robotic!

Though even robots would find it insulting!

> Further, the last sentence in
> 
> ‘z’
>      Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’).  This doesn’t really exit
>      Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer.  I’m not
>      sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
> 
> is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
> is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.

It is fine to ask about it. It makes the whole system personal and
ex(c)iting. 

When I read books of Edgar Allan Poe I also do not understand every
word and meanings of the author, and I have to research a bit and
dwell and go in the past, that is the point of writing, as many
writings are a look into history and environment of the author.

Removing such writing to "comply" to today's expectancy, removes
personality of the author and diminishes the culture and art of it.

Instead, to help the today's reader, one only has to add maybe few
footnotes or hyperlinks for reader to understand what was meant at the
time.

> 3.16 Group Topics
> 
>     If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>     them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
>     here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
>     you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
>     even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
>     groups or the sex groups—or both!  Go wild!

😆 In my age I get the feeling fully! This even makes me subscribe to
newsgroups. That is exactly what people do. Why not make fun out of
what people actually do? No, I would never remove this part of joy
from manual.

> Forgetting about trying to joke around the word sex (the topic,
> often negatively received by, at least, some Muslim users)

There is world on this planet, and that world is not self-centric. No
matter of religion, there is always more beyond that. That is for the
user to understand and grow up out of it. Or not.

> I simply feel disoriented while trying to read this paragraph.

He he he, why not subscribe to newsgroups and try it out.

> I can understand the first sentence. Is the rest of the paragraph a
> joke?  Or are there useful pieces of information coded inside?

Why be robotic and have it all strict, straight, and explicitly
useful.

Is that not bringing you a bit out o balance and habits of reading
technical documentation? Isn't it good that author talks to you in
funny way?

It is similar to a child being approached by rather unknown adult
person, some children will accept it and get along, some will start
crying. It is a process of growing up, at some point, same child will
be able to confront the unknown (not only people) and feel confident.

> 8 Scoring has
> 
>     Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
>     better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
>     something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
>     attention!

Keep the culture, only understand it, and add footnotes for people
though I don't think is necessary.

All your questions will be answered by understanding why Lars wrote
Gnus. Hahahahahha.

--
Jean

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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > ‘z’
  > >      Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’).  This doesn’t really exit
  > >      Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer.  I’m not
  > >      sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge?
  > > 
  > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function
  > > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused.

I too feel confused by that patricular joke.
Being a joke is not bad, but confusing the reader is bad.
So I think it should be deleted.

It poses a question which is a good question, but fails to
answer it.  Is the suspend command useful?  I guess that it is or was
useful for some people.  Can anyone say why it was useful?

How about replacing a joke with an explanation?

  > > 8 Scoring has
  > > 
  > >     Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
  > >     better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
  > >     something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
  > >     attention!

Can anyone explain that joke to me?  I don't get it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> [2023-02-14 07:52]:
>   > > 8 Scoring has
>   > > 
>   > >     Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring
>   > >     better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight.  They do
>   > >     something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay
>   > >     attention!
> 
> Can anyone explain that joke to me?  I don't get it.

Examine definitions below, and go back in time of reading newsgroups:

* Overview of noun score

The noun score has 11 senses (first 6 from tagged texts)
1. (18) mark, grade, score -- (a number or letter indicating quality (especially of a student's performance); "she made good marks in algebra"; "grade A milk"; "what was your score on your homework?")
2. (8) score, musical score -- (a written form of a musical composition; parts for different instruments appear on separate staves on large pages; "he studied the score of the sonata")
3. (4) score -- (a number that expresses the accomplishment of a team or an individual in a game or contest; "the score was 7 to 0")
4. (4) score -- (a set of twenty members; "a score were sent out but only one returned")
5. (1) score, account -- (grounds; "don't do it on my account"; "the paper was rejected on account of its length"; "he tried to blame the victim but his success on that score was doubtful")
6. (1) score -- (the facts about an actual situation; "he didn't know the score")
7. score -- (an amount due (as at a restaurant or bar); "add it to my score and I'll settle later")
8. score, scotch -- (a slight surface cut (especially a notch that is made to keep a tally))
9. grudge, score, grievance -- (a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation; "holding a grudge"; "settling a score")
10. score -- (the act of scoring in a game or sport; "the winning score came with less than a minute left to play")
11. sexual conquest, score -- (a seduction culminating in sexual intercourse; "calling his seduction of the girl a `score' was a typical example of male slang")


--
Jean

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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Sam James]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 80 bytes --]


Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
original bug & improving it.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1.2: Improve joke re groups --]
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From 89350cf5b339749587168438200f41ed40805a1f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 03:54:03 +0000
Subject: [PATCH] ; Enhance joke to be more fitting with Emacs philosophy

* Replace "sex groups" with "non-free software groups" as something
fitting with the GNU Emacs philosophy.  (Bug #61325)
---
 doc/misc/gnus.texi | 9 ++++-----
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
index f0d3c75d055..08c9b92c431 100644
--- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
+++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
@@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ exiting Gnus.
 
 If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
 them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
-here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
-you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
-even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
-groups or the sex groups---or both!  Go wild!
+here, your shameful non-free software groups over there, and the rest
+(what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never bother
+with anyway.  You can even group the Emacs non-free groups as a sub-topic to
+either the Emacs groups or the non-free groups---or both!  Go wild!
 
 @iftex
 @iflatex
@@ -3898,7 +3898,6 @@ Go ahead, just try it.  I'll still be here when you get back.  La de
 dum@dots{} Nice tune, that@dots{} la la la@dots{} What, you're back?
 Yes, and now press @kbd{l}.  There.  All your groups are now listed
 under @samp{misc}.  Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy?
-Hot and bothered?
 
 If you want this permanently enabled, you should add that minor mode to
 the hook for the group mode.  Put the following line in your
-- 
2.39.2


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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote:
> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
> original bug & improving it.

I like that.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> said:

    Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote:
    >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
    >> original bug & improving it.

    Dmitry> I like that.

I donʼt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about
sex and Emacs, and very little else.

Robert
-- 

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 09/03/2023 16:17, Robert Pluim wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  said:
>      Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote:
>      >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
>      >> original bug & improving it.
> 
>      Dmitry> I like that.
> 
> I donʼt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about
> sex and Emacs, and very little else.

Do they, though?

I'm not a puritan, but the "joke" seems juvenile to me, and simply not 
very funny.

I get the point about preserving history, but maybe the latest version 
of the official manual is not the best place for that effort.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 18:57:55 +0200, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> said:

    Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 16:17, Robert Pluim wrote:
    >>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  said:
    Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote:
    >> >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
    >> >> original bug & improving it.
    Dmitry> I like that.
    >> I donʼt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about
    >> sex and Emacs, and very little else.

    Dmitry> Do they, though?

Of course not. Thatʼs why itʼs a joke.

    Dmitry> I'm not a puritan, but the "joke" seems juvenile to me, and simply not
    Dmitry> very funny.

    Dmitry> I get the point about preserving history, but maybe the latest version
    Dmitry> of the official manual is not the best place for that effort.

I donʼt see why weʼre expending so much effort on an attempted
re-write of something that is absolutely not offensive to anyone whoʼs
not looking to get offended.

Robert
-- 

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jose A. Ortega Ruiz]

On Thu, Mar 09 2023, Robert Pluim wrote:

>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 16:10:22 +0200, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> said:
>
>     Dmitry> On 09/03/2023 06:05, Sam James wrote:
>     >> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
>     >> original bug & improving it.
>
>     Dmitry> I like that.
>
> I donʼt. It loses the self-deprecating joke that hackers care about
> sex and Emacs, and very little else.

Agreed.  As I see it, these jokes are, in their small scale, literature,
not technical writing.  One doesn't rewrite literature, unless one is
Roald Dahl's editor, or the original author of the work.  IMHO, it'd be
more respectful to their authors to simply delete the jokes if need be
(I don't think there's any need, though).

jao
-- 
Since when do we have to agree with people to defend them from
injustice? -Lillian Hellman, playwright (20 Jun 1905-1984)

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Sam James <sam@gentoo.org> writes:

> Attached hopefully a good compromise between the
> original bug & improving it.
>
> From 89350cf5b339749587168438200f41ed40805a1f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 03:54:03 +0000
> Subject: [PATCH] ; Enhance joke to be more fitting with Emacs philosophy
>
> * Replace "sex groups" with "non-free software groups" as something
> fitting with the GNU Emacs philosophy.  (Bug #61325)
> ---
>  doc/misc/gnus.texi | 9 ++++-----
>  1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)
>
> diff --git a/doc/misc/gnus.texi b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> index f0d3c75d055..08c9b92c431 100644
> --- a/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> +++ b/doc/misc/gnus.texi
> @@ -3860,10 +3860,10 @@ exiting Gnus.
>  
>  If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group
>  them hierarchically according to topics.  You put your Emacs groups over
> -here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?)
> -you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway.  You can
> -even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs
> -groups or the sex groups---or both!  Go wild!
> +here, your shameful non-free software groups over there, and the rest
> +(what, two groups or so?) you put in some misc section that you never bother
> +with anyway.  You can even group the Emacs non-free groups as a sub-topic to
> +either the Emacs groups or the non-free groups---or both!  Go wild!
>  
>  @iftex
>  @iflatex
> @@ -3898,7 +3898,6 @@ Go ahead, just try it.  I'll still be here when you get back.  La de
>  dum@dots{} Nice tune, that@dots{} la la la@dots{} What, you're back?
>  Yes, and now press @kbd{l}.  There.  All your groups are now listed
>  under @samp{misc}.  Doesn't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy?
> -Hot and bothered?
>  
>  If you want this permanently enabled, you should add that minor mode to
>  the hook for the group mode.  Put the following line in your

First of all, we should not compromise with people who want to take away
our freedom to read a good joke in the manual.  That alone is enough to
reject this change.

Secondly, your change equates sex with something shameful and nasty,
like the development of proprietary software.  That is not true.

Finally, you did not even update the sample Group buffer contents.

BTW, for the reasons outlined by the Chief GNUsiance, can we please
close this bug report now?

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2023-03-10 13:57]:
> Secondly, your change equates sex with something shameful and nasty,
> like the development of proprietary software.  That is not true.

Thanks! Well said. It seems that we need some kind of special glasses
to look through the matrix (as from the movie) into the truth of
meanings.

-- 
Jean

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bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I was just pointed to 3.15 Exiting Gnus, 3.16 Group Topics, and 8
> Scoring sections of GNUS manual. Apparently, at least some users find
> the style of these sections insulting.
>
> While I do not object jokes per se, I do note that for a person outside
> USA context or, sometimes, for a person inside USA context, jokes in the
> listed section are simply distracting from understanding the described
> topic.

This spawned a huge megathread where no clear consensus was to be found.
Discussing this as a general proposition is unlikely to lead to any
results at this point, so I'm closing this bug report.

If this issue is to be revisited, I suggest it is done with patches that
are both

  a) very small, and
  b) sent in separate bug reports.

In particular, we are interested in fixing those places where there is
only a joke, and no a clear explanation.

Thanks.

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Ihor Radchenko]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> If this issue is to be revisited, I suggest it is done with patches that
> are both
>
>   a) very small, and
>   b) sent in separate bug reports.
>
> In particular, we are interested in fixing those places where there is
> only a joke, and no a clear explanation.

Agree.

AFAIR, several patches have been proposed along the course of the
discussion, including more atomic ones. If you can, may you please
review them and see if they should be rejected/accepted. My vague memory
tells me that at least one patch has been merged, but I often have hard
time tracking which patches were accepted and which not - it is not
always indicated in debbugs threads.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> AFAIR, several patches have been proposed along the course of the
> discussion, including more atomic ones. If you can, may you please
> review them and see if they should be rejected/accepted. My vague memory
> tells me that at least one patch has been merged,

git log tells me that only b16965ef7e60 was installed.

> but I often have hard time tracking which patches were accepted and
> which not - it is not always indicated in debbugs threads.

Indeed there is no such automatic marking, so it has to be done
manually.