From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Danny Freeman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New Package for NonGNU-ELPA: clojure-ts-mode Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:56:12 -0400 Message-ID: <87cyz650pf.fsf@dfreeman.email> References: <87il9kksqz.fsf@dfreeman.email> <831qfrptiq.fsf@gnu.org> <57429221-d9be-5791-e975-b3539905e2f6@gutov.dev> <83a5udlj47.fsf@gnu.org> <87a5udk1co.fsf@posteo.net> <835y51kslv.fsf@gnu.org> <7a82c524-1aa1-e755-e377-673ebb107a44@gutov.dev> <83r0nok8s4.fsf@gnu.org> <87il90znco.fsf@yahoo.com> <1977fbef-307b-bcf4-9448-64f26916dd65@gutov.dev> <87edjozlqq.fsf@yahoo.com> <43ddad10-49dd-1c49-ebfe-51689780b315@gutov.dev> <87msyciplu.fsf@posteo.net> <83h6okk3oe.fsf@gnu.org> <87edjoindn.fsf@posteo.net> <83bkesjwuk.fsf@gnu.org> <83bkeri1cz.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11494"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , bozhidar@batsov.dev, philipk@posteo.net, dmitry@gutov.dev, luangruo@yahoo.com, stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, manuel.uberti@inventati.org To: Lynn Winebarger Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 28 23:15:16 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qajZr-0002l4-Hx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 23:15:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qajZG-00018K-I9; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 17:14:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qajZC-00017U-Ga for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 17:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: from out-248.mta1.migadu.com ([95.215.58.248]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qajZ9-00026j-J8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 17:14:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dfreeman.email; s=key1; t=1693257265; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=IjD3ud4i5O/NaAh7QJKfMQElvdXsIl/k/hKsHsS3gVg=; b=n687xqpe5OMBAeRmzyfLXPkF+HmCJeDtXfIx0p6gfvzqr1WK3xjj0nZV1E1jyRvpsC4J33 KRPftd3JGm3T9of3vB7hm6pChAKJkkNn+Mo0c+k9whOTZAlxeVPT+H14pA1MQJU/YBLe1u ZYh16vKusjgXWW/zi0m/Jx/LmSRO84w= X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. In-reply-to: X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.215.58.248; envelope-from=danny@dfreeman.email; helo=out-248.mta1.migadu.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309455 Archived-At: Lynn Winebarger writes: > > Whether or not a derivative of clojure-mode is incorporated into core > emacs is not the same question as whether the external clojure-mode > project is subsumed into core emacs development. Given RMS's request > to include a clojure mode as a core emacs feature, the required > development effort could be spent either maintaining a derivative of > the existing software/manuals/etc that complies with the emacs > development process or developing the tooling from scratch. Assuming > such development resources can be identified, then, as I wrote, the > only real issue blocking the incorporation of (some derivative of) > that software is the copyright assignment question, assuming any > trademark-type issues on the names of the packages are resolved. > > Whatever authority Bozhidar has is over the project he's a maintainer > of, not over emacs or clojure features incorporated in it, or even, > frankly, the software produced by his project. It is licensed as free > software, after all. The only meaningful constraint on the creation of > a fork, major or minor, of free software is the pain involved in > maintaining such forks. > > I'm not sure why you would assume the project that > created/maintains/develops an external package would necessarily want > to contribute the additional labor required to participate in the > emacs development process. If the emacs project wants to incorporate > such a package in core, it's not unreasonable to expect it to provide > the resources required rather than expecting the additional labor be > done by the external project. > > Lynn I would once again like to ask, who is asking for this? RMS isn't a clojure developer, and is hardly in a position to speak on behalf of clojure developers. Why would we go through through the trouble maintaining a fork of clojure mode when the maintainers are perfectly content to do all the work outside of Emacs with their own release schedule, their own development process, and with the clojure development community fully in support of the current state of the clojure ecosystem within Emacs? Having a clojure-mode in the core of emacs without the buy in of the current maintainers is going to fracture the community and confuse people. Philip made a pretty convincing argument about this earlier in the thread in how this would disrupt packages that use clojure-mode like cider and inf-clojure (among others). Sure you can theoretically gather up signatures, find someone to maintain in the core, and push it out in the next release. It will still be confusing to users, and a slap in the face to the current maintainers who have asked that this NOT be done. If clojure-mode ever gets into the core it should be done with everyone's buy in, and you don't have that. -- Danny Freeman