From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stephen Berman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: please make line-move-visual nil Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:40:03 +0200 Message-ID: <87bppug6gc.fsf@escher.local.home> References: <4A0C402C.7060804@slugfest.demon.co.uk> <20090514181712.GA2413@muc.de> <7C757F28-A6B2-48FB-A8AC-CF2E1728FA68@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1242373240 10802 80.91.229.12 (15 May 2009 07:40:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 07:40:40 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 15 09:40:33 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1M4s1w-0002pq-K4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 09:40:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55520 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M4s1w-0001sM-4l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M4s1s-0001sH-54 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:28 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1M4s1n-0001ru-L4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:27 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=46835 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1M4s1n-0001rr-Hu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:58564) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1M4s1n-00034Y-5F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:23 -0400 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1M4s1l-0001SI-4e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:21 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1M4s1h-0007aI-PW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 07:40:17 +0000 Original-Received: from i59f56b67.versanet.de ([89.245.107.103]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 07:40:17 +0000 Original-Received: from stephen.berman by i59f56b67.versanet.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 07:40:17 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 27 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: i59f56b67.versanet.de User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.93 (gnu/linux) X-Detected-Operating-System: by mx20.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:110887 Archived-At: On Thu, 14 May 2009 22:32:53 -0700 David Reitter wrote: > On May 14, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>> >>> On a more general note, I wonder why experienced users occasionally >>> resist change in the UI in general (as it breaks things) rather than >>> avoiding to upgrade. >> >> [linguistic point: "avoid" takes a noun or a gerund (which needn't be >> round), not an infinitive. You want "avoiding an upgrade" or "avoiding >> upgrading" here.] > > You are right. My heartfelt apologies. Language is to me what people (me > excluded) speak, not what some book says. The avoid+infinitive construction > doesn't get any traction in a Google search (using past tense), so I concede. One not too rarely encountered (and to me fairly acceptable) avoid+infinitive construction is when `avoid' is passivized with an expletive subject: "It should be avoided to ...". FWIW Google (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q="it+should+be+avoided+to"&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=undefined&fp=Frx3gI01710) shows "about 3,380" hits. Interestingly (and probably not insignificantly), the same search with the German Google (http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=cYC&q="it+should+be+avoided+to"&btnG=Suche&meta=&aq=f&oq=) shows "ungefähr 9.520" hits (for non-German readers: the point here is used like the comma in English). Steve Berman