From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: guile and emacs and elisp, oh my! Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:22:18 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87bpdd8079.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87tyr587a2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1271853672 14717 80.91.229.12 (21 Apr 2010 12:41:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:41:12 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 21 14:41:07 2010 connect(): No such file or directory Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O4ZEn-0005sP-6k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:41:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56029 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O4ZEl-0006nQ-DJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:41:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1O4Ywx-0000yO-1H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:22:39 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=52238 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O4Ywv-0000wl-8I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:22:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O4Ywp-0005Ps-K0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:22:37 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:57740) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O4Ywp-0005PU-0I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:22:31 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O4Ywm-0000VL-7P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:22:28 +0200 Original-Received: from p5b2c22e7.dip.t-dialin.net ([91.44.34.231]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:22:28 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by p5b2c22e7.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:22:28 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ connect(): No such file or directory Original-Lines: 37 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p5b2c22e7.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:+Cfv/NARrElyhphgJhr9RA05jbE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:123980 Archived-At: David Engster writes: > David Kastrup writes: >> David Engster writes: >> >>> Tom Tromey writes: >>>> I think it is beneficial to a program like Emacs to have a single >>>> extension language. A single language makes both reuse and debugging >>>> simpler. Multiple languages equals chaos. >>> >>> I tend to agree. The priority should be to make Emacs Lisp more >>> powerful, for example by adding stuff from the CL library to the >>> language core. >> >> The cl library is an incredibly complex hack. It makes debugging and >> figuring out things quite harder. >> >> It makes more sense to switch to a system which deals with such >> complexity in more straightforward ways. >> >> So I tend to see your wish of "make Emacs Lisp more powerful instead" as >> more expensive and painful in the long run. > > With "stuff from the CL library" I'm not talking about features like > 'lexical-let' or even the whole thing. What I'd really like to see, at > least in the short term, are things like 'remove-if', 'delete-if', > 'every', 'notany', 'count', 'loop', etc. But most of the stuff working with predicates is a rather bad idea to use extensively without proper and efficient closures. Putting that stuff into Emacs without a better integration into the engine than the CL hackery is going to encourage programming styles that lead to inefficient solutions. -- David Kastrup