From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:25:14 +0200 Message-ID: <87bpacdpwl.fsf@telefonica.net> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <87hbk4i1m4.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278991535 467 80.91.229.12 (13 Jul 2010 03:25:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 03:25:35 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 13 05:25:33 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYW7h-0002US-5T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:25:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45383 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYW7g-0006qe-Ex for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:25:32 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49774 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYW7a-0006qZ-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:25:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYW7Z-0003wH-Ax for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:25:26 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:55065) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYW7Z-0003w0-2d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 23:25:25 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYW7X-0002Sl-3w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:25:23 +0200 Original-Received: from 83.42.13.171 ([83.42.13.171]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:25:23 +0200 Original-Received: from ofv by 83.42.13.171 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:25:23 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 29 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 83.42.13.171 User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:aYQf+afpoGQ6Jaoa2IED11kd0Ms= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127141 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: [snipped text where I mostly agree] > OTOH, changing the terms used by long-time users would cause great > confusion and annoyance. I don't think you can win this argument if > you target the names of commands. I think it is more reasonable to add alias, perhaps make some commands non-interactive and add new ones with the "new" terms, and replace all references on the Emacs manual (not the Elisp manual) to use the new terms. I don't see why old timers would have a problem with this. After all, if we expect from every newcomer to learn Emacs-ish, we can expect from the veterans to learn that Paste means the same as Yank (in case they still don't know.) Sure, there are technical details, none hard, although maybe a bit controversial... Oh, wait! > It would be much easier to get support if you create such a pictorial > vocabulary for use by new users and non-programmers. Bonus points for > making it possible to create a "keyboard macro" using only the mouse, > translate it to Lisp, and associate the pictures with the appropriate > Lisp commands. And of course much of the relevant vocabulary will > already be present in collections of icons provided by GNOME et al. Not really, the long term investment should be to teach modern terms to Emacs, instead of insisting on forcing every newcomer to learn the Emacs terms.