From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Wojciech Meyer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 18:57:50 +0100 Message-ID: <87bp9w4va9.fsf@gmail.com> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <270AD461F0F14E549F82D88785A23A0A@us.oracle.com> <876306140d.fsf@telefonica.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279994291 22251 80.91.229.12 (24 Jul 2010 17:58:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:58:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Tom , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Leo Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 24 19:58:06 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ociz7-0000MH-A3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:58:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33022 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ociz6-0002Qb-NA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:58:04 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=47549 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ociz1-0002QW-72 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:58:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ociz0-0000o9-0H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:57:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:56954) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ociyz-0000o0-RK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:57:57 -0400 Original-Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so1328750wyg.0 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:57:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:cc:subject:references :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=WaEl7kk+6QMxcmvqfBbnhBaqPRWDIPjVCCunzZ5vmF0=; b=rPohZ0KasouQ/veoUw8CnG4SbE3PEj6bhDIoNMO5mARZK6mJguNNy+B2IHLX4TEn4Z 7wdf8mGq/alXolJ7lTzhuVCWYvkHt89BLyngPJ4uBpkJ8fQGBOqVoI7cGXXFvUxLqjgZ LD/cEhC7thL3m2PLArtRz7kvaPyvD+OQZyXTI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; b=teQTe2mLfSlTXpMsKnWI9hXK6K2AllC4DOR9o+k1iPVrXIatW/oe/WrRvpjDmc062G svh48Rl9k+H8NQ9EoEN3QinGHQDUPhJ9KY3KMjl0QFH1AG31rH76wWTm6ZlTmXJiROsf +hk2rR52ZAtRZ+G/bkvWhUHjcjCBqWiQXLzt8= Original-Received: by 10.227.155.3 with SMTP id q3mr5081314wbw.130.1279994275975; Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from spec-desktop.specuu.com (host86-137-129-202.range86-137.btcentralplus.com [86.137.129.202]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p82sm869998weq.27.2010.07.24.10.57.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:57:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Leo's message of "Sat, 24 Jul 2010 09:55:40 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127748 Archived-At: Leo writes: > The recent proposal to use CUA and the like keys is just absurd. It > treats everybody like idiots, newbies and current Emacs users. There is > absolutely no evidence that all newbies want or are bothered by the 2 or > 3 keys i.e. no evidence to go as far as to make it the default, > including fiddling about those [C-insert] keys. I think it has psychological meaning, saying, `if the standard keys are so convoluted, how can I use whole power of *it*, I would need to spend 100+ years to use it'. I use happily S-insert for pasting most of time, as it lies nearby arrows, for copying I use M-w (and yes there are mistakes in other apps), but if I wanted I could easily switch to C-insert (which BTW: is also situated near the arrows). I came from the `CUA background' and at some point had those bindings co-notated in my muscle memory. So either I am fast learning genius or the discussion will not yield anything new. I am happy that C-x is a prefix key, and I am happy that C-c is a prefix key as well, if it comes (as a trade-off) with all the features (and how they are exposed) of Emacs. To emphasise I have been using Emacs for not that very long, and switched to it, because I wanted, having at work visual studio 2001 to choose. It was painful but worth. That does not mean we should not work on user friendliness, that just means that there would be a big price for CUA which personally I wouldn't pay just for having two keys remapped. As my conclusion, Amiga was a great computer before 94 (before it collapsed), but her greatness didn't pair with marketing. To be clear what I mean: Eclipse, Visual Studio is heavily advertised and sponsored environment for developing main stream application, that's their success not ours. Simple CUA support will never out-weight it. And do we want it really? Also, at my work almost everybody use either VIM or Emacs, and one person Eclipse. One of them has changed to Emacs for convenience just 0.5 year ago, and he is fair user since, so there is no clear evidence about lesser popularity, or difficulties catching up, it just depends on the domain. I believe also, who wants to be a hacker will be, no matter of key-bindings, and the rest would anyway use the Notepad subset of Emacs. > Leo Wojciech