From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Nix Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal to improve the nomenclature of scrolling directions Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 16:31:06 +0000 Message-ID: <87bof9s7cl.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> References: <87a9uvv6ng.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1352305883 30008 80.91.229.3 (7 Nov 2012 16:31:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:31:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Dani Moncayo , Daniel Hackney , Emacs development discussions To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 07 17:31:32 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TW8XL-0003Ak-RG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 17:31:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40508 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW8XC-0001Sr-QS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:31:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34820) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW8X6-0001P9-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:31:20 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW8X5-0006kG-6a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:31:16 -0500 Original-Received: from icebox.esperi.org.uk ([81.187.191.129]:38949 helo=mail.esperi.org.uk) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TW8X4-0006jW-TR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:31:15 -0500 Original-Received: from spindle.srvr.nix (nix@spindle.srvr.nix [192.168.14.15]) by mail.esperi.org.uk (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id qA7GV6Z3004096; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:31:06 GMT Emacs: because editing your files should be a traumatic experience. In-Reply-To: <87a9uvv6ng.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Tue, 06 Nov 2012 10:53:23 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-DCC-URT-Metrics: spindle 1060; Body=4 Fuz1=4 Fuz2=4 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 81.187.191.129 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:154716 Archived-At: On 6 Nov 2012, Stephen J. Turnbull verbalised: > The reason the phrases you give don't make sense[1] is that the implicit > object of the verb "scroll" has changed from the text (or the scroll > the text is printed on) to something else -- but I wish you luck > coming up with a coherent definition of that object for the phrases > you quote. FWIW the object I have always imagined is scrolling down is 'the user's viewport'. So 'scroll down' and 'scroll the text up' are synonymous, but the latter is almost never used, since everyone's mental model these days is of unchanging text and a freely moving viewport over the top of it. (This model is also why I use Eli Barzilay's wonderfully simple scroll-in-place implementation, which I really should contribute to upstream Emacs one of these years: I had Eli's go-ahead nearly two years ago, IIRC, and it does need a couple of lines of changes to Gnus to work properly so upstream Emacs is the right place for it. If what you are scrolling is a moving viewport, it is *seriously* confusing to have a sequence of PgDns followed by the same number of PgUps not be an inverse at all times, and vice versa for the other way around. If you think of the text as moving, it is somewhat less confusing, though perhaps not less annoying.) -- NULL && (void)