Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

If you think this is a "troll", please disregard this email.

I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about a 14 year old (such as my self) being able to contribute to the Emacs project.

- Is there an age limit?
- Is it possible for somebody in the UK to sign FSF papers electronically. (<http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE> says that "Copyright assignment is a simple process.  If you live in the US, you can do it entirely electronically.  We can help you get started, and answer any questions you may have (or point you to the people with the answers), at the emacs-devel@gnu.org mailing list."), but I live in the UK, if it isn't, I'll ask my parents.

As said, I'm just curious as I feel I have yet to obtain enough knowledge to be able to contribute "properly" (i.e: I don't know enough LISP/C).

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net>

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

Damn, sorry, I don't write emails that much and forgot to
enable text-wrapping.
-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net>

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Eric S. Raymond]

Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net>:
> I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about a 14
> year old (such as my self) being able to contribute to the Emacs
> project.

Any bright 14-year-old (and we can already tell you qualify as
"bright" by your use of English) is capable of contributing.  It's
unusual, and it takes a kind of concentration that most children
are not yet good at, but it does happen.  I encourage you to try.

Be aware that this list has more than its share of crusty,
rough-tongued people.  If you hang out here, you are likely to be
subjected to what in most other contexts would be considered fairly
serious rudeness and verbal abuse.  Many 14-year-olds have not yet
learned to handle this sort of thing well (and to be fair, some adults
haven't either).  Be braced for it, and remember that no one here has
any power over you that you don't permit them.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Rasmus]

"Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> writes:

> Be aware that this list has more than its share of crusty,
> rough-tongued people.

My advice: Take the above warning with at least an *ounce* of salt.  The
"Emacs-dev" community is friendly and respectful in my experience.

—Rasmus

-- 
I hear there's rumors on the, uh, Internets. . .

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Geoffrey Teale]

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Zack,

Minors are not legally excluded from creating, selling or attributing
copyrighted works, so you should be fine.

-- 
Geoff
On Mar 12, 2015 12:12 PM, "Zack Piper" <zack@apertron.net> wrote:

> If you think this is a "troll", please disregard this email.
>
> I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about a 14 year old
> (such as my self) being able to contribute to the Emacs project.
>
> - Is there an age limit?
> - Is it possible for somebody in the UK to sign FSF papers electronically.
> (<http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE> says that "Copyright
> assignment is a simple process.  If you live in the US, you can do it
> entirely electronically.  We can help you get started, and answer any
> questions you may have (or point you to the people with the answers), at
> the emacs-devel@gnu.org mailing list."), but I live in the UK, if it
> isn't, I'll ask my parents.
>
> As said, I'm just curious as I feel I have yet to obtain enough knowledge
> to be able to contribute "properly" (i.e: I don't know enough LISP/C).
>
> --
> Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net>
>
>

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Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

Thanks for the response!

I'm sure that I've learnt to cope with random insults that may come my
way, due to me having been hanging around in IRC since the age of 11.
(I haven't seen any insults thrown around on this list... so I think
I'll be fine).

I shall continue learning C and/or LISP, until I feel ready, and
practice by making, potentially useful, Emacs packages.

Again, thanks!

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[vibhavp]

Signing the copyright assignment papers if you're outside the US isn/t
that hard. I just had mine approved, which I had sent to the FSF via
snail mail. Just fill up this form, and send it to assign@gnu.org with
your name as the subject. You will receive a form from the copyright
clerk, which you will need to fill and send to the FSF. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
REQUEST: SEND FORM FOR PAST AND FUTURE CHANGES

[What is the name of the program or package you're contributing to?]

  

[Did you copy any files or text written by someone else in these changes?
Even if that material is free software, we need to know about it.]


[Do you have an employer who might have a basis to claim to own
your changes?  Do you attend a school which might make such a claim?]


[For the copyright registration, what country are you a citizen of?]


[What year were you born?]


[Please write your email address here.]


[Please write your postal address here.]





[Which files have you changed so far, and which new files have you written
so far?]
-- 
Vibhav Pant
vibhavp@gmail.com

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

Alright, I shall keep this in mind when I feel I'm ready. Thanks!

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Óscar Fuentes]

Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> writes:

[snip]

> I shall continue learning C and/or LISP, until I feel ready, and
> practice by making, potentially useful, Emacs packages.

There are ways to contribute that does not require programming
knowledge. Helping with bug reports is one of them. You can pick old bug
reports and see if they still are valid (when they come with a
reproducible recipe) and search for simpler recipes for those reports
with non-trivial ones (a bug report has a "simple" recipe when it starts
with "emacs -Q" and does not depend on installing external packages).
Checking the correctness of documentation is another instance of work
that does not require programming skills and will gain you of a solid
knowledge of Emacs' capabilities.

This type of work is very important for any software project, requires
cleverness and is very appreciated by the core developers. It also helps
you to gain skills on project management and community interaction,
which is a key ability that no amount of C/Lisp learning will provide.

You don't need to sign the FSF papers for those tasks.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 01:46:58PM +0100, Óscar Fuentes wrote:
> Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> writes:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > I shall continue learning C and/or LISP, until I feel ready, and
> > practice by making, potentially useful, Emacs packages.
> 
> There are ways to contribute that does not require programming
> knowledge. Helping with bug reports is one of them. You can pick old bug
> reports and see if they still are valid (when they come with a
> reproducible recipe) and search for simpler recipes for those reports
> with non-trivial ones (a bug report has a "simple" recipe when it starts
> with "emacs -Q" and does not depend on installing external packages).
> Checking the correctness of documentation is another instance of work
> that does not require programming skills and will gain you of a solid
> knowledge of Emacs' capabilities.
> 
> This type of work is very important for any software project, requires
> cleverness and is very appreciated by the core developers. It also helps
> you to gain skills on project management and community interaction,
> which is a key ability that no amount of C/Lisp learning will provide.
> 
> You don't need to sign the FSF papers for those tasks.
> 
> 

Hm, sounds like something I can do in the meantime. I will take a look.

Thanks!

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Stefan Monnier]

> - Is there an age limit?

Like most games, it's only for "7 to 77", but it looks like you're still
within the limits.

> - Is it possible for somebody in the UK to sign FSF papers
> electronically.

The process is changed on a regular basis and I'm not in the
corresponding loop, so I couldn't tell you for sure.  Last I heard, it
was not possible, tho.  This said, I do not know how your age may impact
the handling/validity of a copyright assignment (e.g. maybe your
parents would need to sign something?).  Luckily, the process lets
a lawyer figure all that out for me because you have to fill the form
below, and then the FSF staff will figure out what you need to do and
send you the relevant paperwork in the most efficient way available.

> As said, I'm just curious as I feel I have yet to obtain enough knowledge to
> be able to contribute "properly" (i.e: I don't know enough LISP/C).

There are many ways to contribute (doc fixes, bug reports, helping
others configure their Emacs, writing packages, fixing bugs, rewriting
the redisplay engine, ...).

Oh, wait bloody hell, I forgot to curse!
Damn you fucking moron, look what you made me do!
BUZZ OFF!!!!

Eww!  That was a close call.  Anyway, what was I saying?  Oh, right, we
can help you "fill the knowledge gap" when needed.  The main thing you
need to know, is that we're all pretty busy, so your contribution may
stay ignored for quite a while if for some reason it doesn't catch our
attention.  This does suck, indeed.


        Stefan


Please email the following information to assign@gnu.org, and we
will send you the assignment form for your past and future changes.

Please use your full legal name (in ASCII characters) as the subject
line of the message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
REQUEST: SEND FORM FOR PAST AND FUTURE CHANGES

[What is the name of the program or package you're contributing to?]
Emacs

[Did you copy any files or text written by someone else in these changes?
Even if that material is free software, we need to know about it.]


[Do you have an employer who might have a basis to claim to own
your changes?  Do you attend a school which might make such a claim?]


[For the copyright registration, what country are you a citizen of?]


[What year were you born?]


[Please write your email address here.]


[Please write your postal address here.]





[Which files have you changed so far, and which new files have you written
so far?]

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 10:10:16AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Eww!  That was a close call.  Anyway, what was I saying?  Oh, right, we
> can help you "fill the knowledge gap" when needed.  The main thing you
> need to know, is that we're all pretty busy, so your contribution may
> stay ignored for quite a while if for some reason it doesn't catch our
> attention.  This does suck, indeed.

Alright, I understand.

Thanks!

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Michael Albinus]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Like most games, it's only for "7 to 77", but it looks like you're still
> within the limits.

Oh shit! I'll become 59 this year; just 18 years left for Emacs hacking.

Will be there a way to shift the upper limit? A yearly exam, or
something like this?

Best regards, Michael.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about a 14
  > year old (such as my self) being able to contribute to the Emacs
  > project.

If you write good contributions, we will accept them gratefully.

  > - Is there an age limit?

No, but I think we will need your parent's signature on the
copyright papers.

  > - Is it possible for somebody in the UK to sign FSF papers electronically. 

I think not.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

>> - Is there an age limit?
> 
> No, but I think we will need your parent's signature on the
> copyright papers.

I see. I'll try and convince them. Thanks!

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Sean Allred]

On Mar 12, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> wrote:
>> No, but I think we will need your parent's signature on the
>> copyright papers.
> 
> I see. I'll try and convince them. Thanks!

It’ll be important to your parents that they understand what’s going on (and what isn’t going on) when you contribute code to FSF projects (e.g. Emacs). Try to anticipate the questions they’ll ask:

- who owns your work, what obligations you have (or don’t have) after contributing
- how you may (or may not) be held liable for what you write
- etc.

They’re important questions any concerned and attentive parent would ask.

Best of luck,
-Sean

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Paul Eggert]

On 03/12/2015 01:17 PM, Michael Albinus wrote:
>> Like most games, it's only for "7 to 77", but it looks like you're still
>> within the limits.
> Oh shit! I'll become 59 this year; just 18 years left for Emacs hacking.
>
> Will be there a way to shift the upper limit?

Sure: switch to base 16.  That's what Turing would have done.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 03:56:51PM -0500, Sean Allred wrote:
> On Mar 12, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> wrote:
> >> No, but I think we will need your parent's signature on the
> >> copyright papers.
> > 
> > I see. I'll try and convince them. Thanks!
> 
> It’ll be important to your parents that they understand what’s going on (and what isn’t going on) when you contribute code to FSF projects (e.g. Emacs). Try to anticipate the questions they’ll ask:
> 
> - who owns your work, what obligations you have (or don’t have) after contributing
> - how you may (or may not) be held liable for what you write
> - etc.
> 
> They’re important questions any concerned and attentive parent would ask.
> 
> Best of luck,
> -Sean

I'll keep that in mind. In the meantime I will help out with other
things (bugs, etc. As stated in other messages in this thread). Until
I feel the "time is right" for when I want to submit the papers.

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Michael Albinus]

Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:

> On 03/12/2015 01:17 PM, Michael Albinus wrote:
>>> Like most games, it's only for "7 to 77", but it looks like you're still
>>> within the limits.
>> Oh shit! I'll become 59 this year; just 18 years left for Emacs hacking.
>>
>> Will be there a way to shift the upper limit?
>
> Sure: switch to base 16.  That's what Turing would have done.

Thanks, you save my day. That means I'm still under 40 ... not so bad.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net>
() Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:12:14 +0000

   I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about
   a 14 year old (such as my self) being able to contribute to
   the Emacs project.

For any GNU project, i think it helps to understand the GNU GPL
and its evolution.  When the technical draw ebbs, will you be
satisfied w/ what you leave future beachcombers?  How to even
measure that, now or hence?  I'm curious why you chose Emacs.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen -----------------------------------------------
  (if you're human and you know it) read my lisp:
    (defun responsep (type via)
      (case type
        (technical (eq 'mailing-list via))
        ...))
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Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[raman]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:


Just use Hex for citing your age.> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>
>> Like most games, it's only for "7 to 77", but it looks like you're still
>> within the limits.
>
> Oh shit! I'll become 59 this year; just 18 years left for Emacs hacking.
>
> Will be there a way to shift the upper limit? A yearly exam, or
> something like this?
>
> Best regards, Michael.
>

-- 

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Like most games, it's only for "7 to 77", but it looks like you're still
>> within the limits.
> Oh shit! I'll become 59 this year; just 18 years left for Emacs hacking.

Better start coding faster, eh?


        Stefan

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Vaidheeswaran C]

On Thursday 12 March 2015 04:42 PM, Zack Piper wrote:

Zack, share with us that which is of most interest to us -- your
C/Emacs Lisp code.

Next time you step in at the doors, make sure you have packed some
cookies (i.e., C/Emacs Lisp code) for us.

Show and Tell us.  Bring us cookies.  Play us your tunes.  We sure
love Zack's cookies and tunes as much as anyone else's.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Florian Weimer]

* Zack Piper:

> - Is there an age limit?

I don't know the situation in the UK, but in Germany, minors are not
allowed to enter certain types of contracts unless they have
permission from the guardianship court (parental consent is not
enough).  The FSF copyright assignment has an indemnification clause
with potentially unbounded liability, and I would expect that such
contracts are not valid without such court approval.  (The idea is
that once you start adult life, you are not burdened by liabilities
your parents have accumulated in your name, as your guardians.)

There is a related question, whether a minor can release his or her
own work under a free license (while retaining copyright ownership),
without the right to revoke the license grant when reaching adulthood.

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Karl Fogel]

Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> writes:
>I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about a 14 year
>old (such as my self) being able to contribute to the Emacs project.

Hi, Zack.  Not only is it fine, it's not even the first time it's happend! :-)  See the story at the beginning of this chapter:

  http://producingoss.com/en/communications.html#you-are-what-you-write

Best,
-Karl

Re: Is it possible for a 14 year old in the UK to be able to contribute to Emacs?

[Zack Piper]

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 02:34:57PM -0500, Karl Fogel wrote:
> Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> writes:
> >I'm curious as to what GNU (and Emacs developers) feel about a 14 year
> >old (such as my self) being able to contribute to the Emacs project.
> 
> Hi, Zack.  Not only is it fine, it's not even the first time it's happend! :-)  See the story at the beginning of this chapter:
> 
>   http://producingoss.com/en/communications.html#you-are-what-you-write
> 
> Best,
> -Karl
> 

Oh wow! Thanks! I shall be reading it soon.

-- 
Zack Piper <zack@apertron.net> http://apertron.net