From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 17:03:16 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87bm98owuj.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <0C11D648-213E-4BF1-9095-33A3E0D6DC85@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536421950 15951 195.159.176.226 (8 Sep 2018 15:52:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 15:52:30 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Bingo Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 08 17:52:25 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfX7-000425-6V for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 17:52:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43402 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfZD-0003Zt-Es for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:54:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35565) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfYJ-0002wu-Js for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:53:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfYI-000822-Mu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:53:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::9]:29323) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfYI-0007vz-77 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:53:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536422015; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=YSOx9mP8UyzvnoPc1rrlc9g3fdcVDdNHpNUvx7Vj/f0=; b=gwqQRWRkzsllwFkQzlj7BtGWpsnJ7iVWg1Q9IuftFCBnNzTKOUhESRf52nODvQgms+ ZZY82LeBOqPxXa3YD8Rw1EWmKmhgtXxg7YF+dWqi/xY2ScNl1G9a34siqN/6eTmMIp/0 CjtlSJEDzE3b5G8/3onv0bEm6FIf3cfJm+2FLR84UA1ckMI7VtGtZYbpb4wCF85GPbgc hpd1lTb0pzwb5sjdBf3l5URQaguX5RNBxAHtAKICVmlmfoNhStUMfCryxVTBYF0kHgwM Nkxj8VGe5AxMw/v9R3RHDoigt4DlzKUeIf5mAvSo6USpgB62H1YgySIi+MNXSbEi5uEX Jz4A== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u88FrZDgz (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sat, 8 Sep 2018 17:53:35 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fyfYE-0001f5-Ib; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 17:53:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0C11D648-213E-4BF1-9095-33A3E0D6DC85@gmail.com> (Bingo's message of "Sat, 08 Sep 2018 09:16:23 +0530") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229493 Archived-At: Bingo writes: > Can we consider changing defaults only for users who don't have any init file at all ? Unexpectable behaviour of Emacs only because there is no ~/.emacs would be confusing. Which defaults is Emacs supposed to assume for settings that have not been made in ~/.emacs because the user didn't need to change them before the developers did? > This change may not solve many problems, due to two other features of emacs : These are problems of other editors. > 1. Emacs undo is frustrating for most new users. Correcting mistakes > with delete-selection-mode i.e. restore a selection that was deleted > due to a mistaken delete by typing/pasting , will need them to use > undo. Every editor that doesn't understand Emacs` key bindings and doesn't have its functions is frustrating (to use an euphemism). Emacs` undo sucks when you need it more than once because you have to press two keys for it. Using a prefix doesn't work to make this easier because I have no way of knowing how many times I have to use undo before I get back to where I want to. It is a really bad choice. C-z can not easily be used for undo. Other editors should never have used it for that anyway. I don't see why they would because it suspends the process. > 2. In their attempt to play with undo/redo, they might do C-y. Which > pastes in Emacs : but it is the key for redo in many "modern" > editors. This can cause more unintended deletions in > delete-selection-mode. This is another example of how delete-selection-mode supports making mistakes. Without it, C-y seems fine. Shift+Insert works only in X frames. Now imagine you change the key binding for undo and for yank when there is no ~/.emacs to make things easier for beginners. The beginner uses customize to change colours and to set a font and saves this settings. Suddenly undo and yank --- and perhaps lots of other things --- "don't work" anymore because the key bindings have changed. Does that make things easier for beginners --- or more difficult?