From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: `make' written in elisp Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:00:40 +0900 Organization: The XEmacs Project Message-ID: <87acrp2yl3.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87k6qu4vso.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1104840211 807 80.91.229.6 (4 Jan 2005 12:03:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:03:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, schierlm@gmx.de, rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 04 13:03:16 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ClnPA-0002xu-00 for ; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:03:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1ClnaM-00071B-JI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 07:14:50 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1Clna6-0006zD-Dg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 07:14:34 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1Clna4-0006yF-DU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 07:14:32 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1Clna4-0006xc-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 07:14:32 -0500 Original-Received: from [130.158.98.109] (helo=tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.34) id 1ClnN5-0002gp-BX; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 07:01:09 -0500 Original-Received: from steve by tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp with local (Exim 4.34) id 1ClnMf-0006JJ-7m; Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:00:41 +0900 Original-To: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:16:09 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (chayote, linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31810 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31810 BTW, I'm going to be out of town for a week, so any further responses will be delayed. >>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Monnier writes: Stefan> What I was talking about is things like latex-preview Stefan> searching for some LaTeX files. This is not done at Stefan> startup: it is currently done at install time, and I was Stefan> arguing about that it should be done when latex-preview is Stefan> loaded. Of course it may also take too much time, That's my point. People are just not going to find that acceptable, at least they didn't with year 2000 hardware with XEmacs. Even if it's done while you're getting morning coffee---because it will take longer than that. Waiting for it to load every time you reload AUCTeX will wear out the AUCTeX developers. Stefan> So [XEmacs packaging is] similar to `install' in this Stefan> sense, except that you require a Makefile to describe Stefan> where the various files are located. That sounds like a Stefan> good way to do it (tho for `install', it would make more Stefan> sense to use a .el file for that info since `install' does Stefan> the job of `make' for typical simple packages). Agreed. >> There is one point that needs to be mentioned, however, and >> that is that for complex packages that depend on other >> packages, the "calling macros from byte-compiled code" kind of >> bug has dropped from FAQ to fossil status. Stefan> So there is some amount of version-dependency checking Stefan> now? No. These are package dependencies, not version dependencies. If a package uses macros from another one, it is placed in the "REQUIRES" make variable. Then the libraries from those REQUIRE'd packages are preloaded using the -l argument to emacs. Theoretically these could be autogenerated, but the dependency trackers we've seen so far have all been buggy, and miss more dependencies than when doing it by hand. Stefan> Remember, `install' aims for simplicity and tries as much Stefan> as possible to stick to what a real user would manually Stefan> do. Sure. I don't think XEmacs will change its commitment to a more sophisticated ("intrusive and inflexible" if you prefer :-) packaging system. I think we should be able to achieve interoperability in most cases though. -- Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.