From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim X Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: "MIT/GNU/Linux" Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:09:16 +1100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <87ac15lh5f.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> References: <87odpmlnze.fsf@kobe.laptop> <87ejqikz0d.fsf@lion.rapttech.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1167482430 4928 80.91.229.12 (30 Dec 2006 12:40:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:40:30 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 30 13:40:29 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1H0dVi-0002H4-U5 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 13:40:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1H0dVi-0004lu-E4 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Dec 2006 07:40:26 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news.astraweb.com!router2.astraweb.com!216.168.1.164.MISMATCH!sn-xt-sjc-04!sn-xt-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-07!sn-post-sjc-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.92 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:P8ncSzF0Z7pGSHUTcde3uimXvu4= Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Original-Lines: 78 Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:144425 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:40027 Archived-At: Matthew Flaschen writes: > Tim X wrote: >> >> Now for some final clarification - at what point does GNU/Linux become >> something other than GNU/Linux? For example, I would expect a >> distribution like Debian is certainly of the GNU/Linux variety. >> However, what about Red Hat and SuSe? > > Of course. They are using the same basic tools and software as Debian. > > Possibly even more unclear, what >> about the distribution Oracle is planning to release as the supported >> platform for their Oracle databases, can you also call this GNU/Linux? > > Even more obvious. Oracle's product is nothing but Red Hat Enterprise > Linux repackaged. > So then, should that be Red Hat Enterprise GNU Linux? Also, when Larry initially announced that Oracle would do their own distribution, while he indicated it would likely be based on RH Enterprise, he was not prepared to commit to that. I was not aware he (or Oracle) had yet made such a commitment. Obviously, I wasn't clear enough. The point I wanted clarification on is whether GNU Linux refers to Linux distributions which comprise of only free software or whether it refers to all distributions which use both the Linux kernel and GNU utilities and other free software regardless of what other non-free software the distribution contains. >> If there are some distributions which are GNU/Linux and some which are >> not, what is the generic name used to refer to all of them >> collectively (i.e. in the sense of Unix or *nix)? > > Linux distributions, but you will not find a major distribution that > doesn't rely on GNU. Only a few embedded systems use the kernel alone. > >> I also gather from listening to RMS and from some reading that we >> should also avoid referring to GNU software as open source, but >> instead as "Free Software". > > RMS started the movement and the GNU Project and that is the term he > chose to associate with both. > I think you missed the point. RMS does not like the use of the term open source, but prefers free software. The problem is that open source does not necessarily mean free (as in liberty) as you can have software in which the sources are open, but the licensing is restrictive and non-free. I personally agree with this distinction unless I have misunderstood his arguement (which is possible and why I mentioned it.). You might believe that this is all self evident, but I have been using systems based on the Linux kernel since the first release of Slackware and the terminology and how it is applied has not been a static thing. The move away from the general term "Linux" to GNU Linux, while positive in reducing confusion between the OS and kernel references, was not emphasised initially as much as it seems to be now. Open source was considered as synonymous with "free software" until Eric Raymond and the OSI blurred things and an incresing number of companies attempted to jump on the band wagon by releasing their sources, but maintaining restrictive licenses etc. IIRC, even the Linux kernel was not initially released under the GPL. Combine this with the fact few of the major distributions use the term GNU Linux, preferring instead to either avoid explicit references to Linux in the branding or more often, emphasising their company name, the confusion in the press, deliberate FUD from SCO and MS etc, it should not be any surprise that some find it unclear exactly when GNU Linux is appropriate. Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au