Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[CHENG Gao]

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Since URLs of hideshow and edb are changed, MORE.STUFF need be revised.
And Org mode is merged into Emacs but bundled version is not the latest,
so I think it should be mentioned in MORE.STUFF where to get the latest
version.

Attached is diff file.


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--- MORE.STUFF	2007-06-02 14:05:08.000000000 +0800
+++ MORE.STUFF.new	2007-06-02 14:10:01.000000000 +0800
@@ -76,12 +76,14 @@
  * Ffap: <URL:http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/%7Emic/ftp/emacs/>
    (And some addons for it.)
 
- * Hideshow: <URL:http://www.glug.org/people/ttn/software/hideshow/>
+ * Hideshow: <URL:http://www.gnuvola.org/software/hideshow/>
 
  * Ispell: <URL:http://www.eng.utah.edu/~kstevens/ispell-page.html>
 
  * MH-E: <URL:http://mh-e.sourceforge.net/>
 
+ * Org mode: <URL:http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dominik/Tools/org/>
+
  * PS mode: <URL:http://odur.let.rug.nl/%7Ekleiweg/postscript/>
 
  * PS-print: <URL:http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/PsPrintPackage>
@@ -148,7 +150,7 @@
 
  * ECB: Emacs Code Browser: <URL:http://ecb.sourceforge.net/>
 
- * EDB: database: <URL:http://www.glug.org/people/ttn/software/edb/>
+ * EDB: database: <URL:http://www.gnuvola.org/software/edb/>
 
  * Ee: categorizing information manager:
    <URL:http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ee/>

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Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[CHENG Gao]

Seems some URLs in this file are not accessible now:


* Ediff and Viper: <URL:http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~kifer/emacs.html>
* EShell: <URL:http://www.newartisans.com/johnw/emacs.html>
* Fortune: <URL:http://www.coling.uni-freiburg.de/%7Eschauer/emacs.html>

 * Remember:
   <URL:http://sacha.free.net.ph/notebook/wiki/RememberEl.php>
  Moved to https://gna.org/p/remember-el

BTW, boxquote.el is very famous and widely used. Why not make it part of
Emacs? Since quickurl is made by the same user and merged into Emacs, I
trust there should be no problem of copyright assignment.

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[CHENG Gao]

*On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:35:27 +0800
* CHENG Gao <chenggao@gmail.com> climbed out of the dark hell and cried out:

> Seems some URLs in this file are not accessible now:
>
>
> * Ediff and Viper: <URL:http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~kifer/emacs.html>
> * EShell: <URL:http://www.newartisans.com/johnw/emacs.html>
> * Fortune: <URL:http://www.coling.uni-freiburg.de/%7Eschauer/emacs.html>
>
>  * Remember:
>    <URL:http://sacha.free.net.ph/notebook/wiki/RememberEl.php>
>   Moved to https://gna.org/p/remember-el
>
> BTW, boxquote.el is very famous and widely used. Why not make it part of
> Emacs? Since quickurl is made by the same user and merged into Emacs, I
                                            \ s/user/author/

> trust there should be no problem of copyright assignment.

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[David Kastrup]

CHENG Gao <chenggao@gmail.com> writes:

>> BTW, boxquote.el is very famous and widely used. Why not make it part of
>> Emacs?

Because it is ugly, makes extraction hard and does not play together
will with other mail clients?  Not even with Emacs itself.

>> Since quickurl is made by the same user and merged into Emacs, I
>                                             \ s/user/author/

The "E" in "Emacs" stands for "extensible".  There is no border
separating authors and users.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[Leo]

----- David Kastrup (2007-06-02) wrote:-----

>>> BTW, boxquote.el is very famous and widely used. Why not make it
>>> part of Emacs?
>
> Because it is ugly, 

Do you mean the code needs polishing?

> makes extraction hard and does not play together will with other mail
> clients?  Not even with Emacs itself.

Any examples for your claim?

I also feel boxquote is nice to include.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[David Kastrup]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> ----- David Kastrup (2007-06-02) wrote:-----
>
>>>> BTW, boxquote.el is very famous and widely used. Why not make it
>>>> part of Emacs?
>>
>> Because it is ugly, 
>
> Do you mean the code needs polishing?

No.  The results are non-standard, are not suited for extracting or
quoting.  It's the same reason supercite is not a good idea, only more
so.

Inclusion of files has _standard_ MIME mechanisms available.  If
people want a boxquote _look_, they should configure their _reader_ to
_display_ that sort of thing.  They should not _post_ stuff in a
manner that makes it close to impossible to actually extract it in a
useful way with any mail/news client.

For inline quotes of files, there is a standard.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[Leo]

----- David Kastrup (2007-06-02) wrote:-----

> Inclusion of files has _standard_ MIME mechanisms available.  If
> people want a boxquote _look_, they should configure their _reader_ to
> _display_ that sort of thing.  They should not _post_ stuff in a
> manner that makes it close to impossible to actually extract it in a
> useful way with any mail/news client.
>
> For inline quotes of files, there is a standard.

I never use it for quoting files and barely see others do. But I do
found boxquote convenient in quoting a small piece of text.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[David Kastrup]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> ----- David Kastrup (2007-06-02) wrote:-----
>
>> Inclusion of files has _standard_ MIME mechanisms available.  If
>> people want a boxquote _look_, they should configure their _reader_ to
>> _display_ that sort of thing.  They should not _post_ stuff in a
>> manner that makes it close to impossible to actually extract it in a
>> useful way with any mail/news client.
>>
>> For inline quotes of files, there is a standard.
>
> I never use it for quoting files and barely see others do.

Just because people prefer to shoot themselves in the foot, there is
no necessity for handing them a gun.

> But I do found boxquote convenient in quoting a small piece of text.

For quoting it.  But it is a nuisance for extracting/using/whatever
it.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[Leo]

----- David Kastrup (2007-06-02) wrote:-----

>> But I do found boxquote convenient in quoting a small piece of text.
>
> For quoting it.  But it is a nuisance for extracting/using/whatever
> it.

Boxquoted text are the same as the 4 cited lines in this message. I
don't think it adds any unnecessary difficulty.

The most important thing is it gives you the power to present your email
in a much more readable way.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[David Kastrup]

Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> writes:

> ----- David Kastrup (2007-06-02) wrote:-----
>
>>> But I do found boxquote convenient in quoting a small piece of text.
>>
>> For quoting it.  But it is a nuisance for extracting/using/whatever
>> it.
>
> Boxquoted text are the same as the 4 cited lines in this message.

No, since every news reader knows how to deal with those cited lines:
_those_ citations are _well-established_.

> I don't think it adds any unnecessary difficulty.
>
> The most important thing is it gives you the power to present your
> email in a much more readable way.

If the recipient prefers a mail reader that displays quoted parts in
an unreadable way, that is his problem, and every recipient (of which
there are many in mailing lists or Usenet groups) has it within his
own power to pick an appropriate tool for the task.

Using boxquote, instead, creates material that _no_ mail reader
(including all Emacs mail clients, by the way) can understand or
sensibly deal with.

mml-attach-file gives _every_ mail client a chance to make the
included file available in a readable manner, suitably for requoting,
resending, extraction, manipulation.  boxquote.el doesn't.  You need
rectangle operations and similar stuff not usually available in a mail
client to have a remote chance of cutting and pasting the content.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

boxquote (was: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached))

[Jesper Harder]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> No, since every news reader knows how to deal with those cited lines:
> _those_ citations are _well-established_.

Yes, the rules for quoting (or citing) what the previous author wrote
are well established (prepend '>'), and you shouldn't mess with this
format. I agree with you that Supercite is evil because it does that.

But boxquote isn't about quoting the previous author. Its only purpose
is to convey the same meaning in plain text as <blockquote> would do
in HTML.

> mml-attach-file gives _every_ mail client a chance to make the
> included file available in a readable manner, suitably for
> requoting, resending, extraction, manipulation.

MIME attachments aren't really intended for small inline quotes. It
would probably work reasonably well most of the time in Gnus, but it's
not a viable solution because:

   1. Attachments are frowned upon on most of Usenet.
   2. The way inline text attachments are displayed by many clients would
      make this very unfriendly for (probably) the majority of readers.

> boxquote.el doesn't.  You need rectangle operations and similar
> stuff not usually available in a mail client to have a remote chance
> of cutting and pasting the content.

I see your point. But you would also need some text manipulation to
remove the leading spaces if you just display the blockquote in the
simplest way by indentation, e.g.

     Emacs is the extensible, customizable, self-documenting real-time
     display editor.  This Info file describes how to edit with Emacs
     and some of how to customize it; it corresponds to GNU Emacs
     version 22.0.91.

Re: boxquote

[Miles Bader]

Jesper Harder <jesper.harder@gmail.com> writes:
> MIME attachments aren't really intended for small inline quotes. It
> would probably work reasonably well most of the time in Gnus, but it's
> not a viable solution because:

Seriously.

People _like_ boxquote, and it doesn't cause any real problems.  There
are times it's probably better not to use it, but that's true for just
about anything.

-Miles

-- 
Ich bin ein Virus. Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[Chong Yidong]

CHENG Gao <chenggao@gmail.com> writes:

> Seems some URLs in this file are not accessible now:
>
> * Ediff and Viper: <URL:http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~kifer/emacs.html>

This works.

> * EShell: <URL:http://www.newartisans.com/johnw/emacs.html>

ISTR that this site was working when I last checked it.  Maybe John
Wiegley is having problems with his site; the emacswiki.org page for
eshell directs to this same broken page.  I just left this as it is
for now.

> * Fortune: <URL:http://www.coling.uni-freiburg.de/%7Eschauer/emacs.html>

This externally maintained fortune.el page does appear to have been
taken offline, so I removed this.

>  * Remember:
>    <URL:http://sacha.free.net.ph/notebook/wiki/RememberEl.php>
>   Moved to https://gna.org/p/remember-el

Thanks.

> Since URLs of hideshow and edb are changed, MORE.STUFF need be revised.
> And Org mode is merged into Emacs but bundled version is not the latest,
> so I think it should be mentioned in MORE.STUFF where to get the latest
> version.

I checked these in, thanks.

Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[Michael Olson]

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Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

>> * EShell: <URL:http://www.newartisans.com/johnw/emacs.html>
>
> ISTR that this site was working when I last checked it.  Maybe John
> Wiegley is having problems with his site; the emacswiki.org page for
> eshell directs to this same broken page.  I just left this as it is
> for now.

Here is a URL that works: http://johnwiegley.com/eshell.html

John's Emacs page is now at http://johnwiegley.com/emacs.html, for the
record.

-- 
       Michael Olson -- FSF Associate Member #652     |
 http://mwolson.org/ -- Jabber: mwolson_at_hcoop.net  |  /` |\ | | |
            Sysadmin -- Hobbies: Lisp, GP2X, HCoop    | |_] | \| |_|
Projects: Emacs, Muse, ERC, EMMS, ErBot, DVC, Planner |

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Re: Suggestion: Minor changes to etc/MORE.STUFF (diff attached)

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() CHENG Gao <chenggao@gmail.com>
() Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:16:12 +0800

   Since URLs of hideshow and edb are changed,
   MORE.STUFF need be revised.

thanks for calling attention to this.
i've revised entries mentioning glug.org on the trunk:
(Hideshow): Delete.
(EDB, Go in a buffer): Update urls.

thi